Dawn Butler exposed

[EFLImpudence]

Considering Esther Krakue uses the words, 'I think' about 10 or 12 times in the first couple of minutes, and probably continues to use those words at the rate of about 4 or 5 times per minute, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that her opinion is subjective and that the subject is subjective.
Clearly Esther Krakue considers it subjective also, otherwise her comments would not have been prepositioned with, "I think".

So - what are you complaining about, then?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

As it stands at the moment, anyone that stands up and says that there is a problem in some areas of the black community is automatically labelled a racist. When in reality, there is a problem that needs addressing that cannot be rectified by the actions of the police alone.

It is subjective, because it depends on what you identify as 'the problem'.
Choose the wrong 'problem', (wrong, as in according to your viewpoint), or the wrong solution and the allegation may be considered appropriate, from whichever viewpoint you hold.

Therefore, 'problems' ought to be arrived at by a group of fair-minded individuals representing a whole raft of viewpoints, not one individual person's view which will obviously be subjective.

But we've already done that several times, and BJ wants to do it all over again.
Maybe we'll keep doing it until the 'right' problem is identified.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

So - what are you complaining about, then?

You interpret my comment as a complaint? Interesting!
I am not complaining, just reinforcing my (and notch7's, and Esther Krakue's) opinion that the subject is subjective.
Therefore there can be no right or wrong answer or opinion. All are equally valid. We need to work on ways to encompass those views not shout each other down, and not choose one opinion, above all others, because we happen to agree with it.

 

[Lower]

It is subjective, because it depends on what you identify as 'the problem'.
Choose the wrong 'problem', (wrong, as in according to your viewpoint), or the wrong solution and the allegation may be considered appropriate, from whichever viewpoint you hold.

Therefore, 'problems' ought to be arrived at by a group of fair-minded individuals representing a whole raft of viewpoints, not one individual person's view which will obviously be subjective.

But we've already done that several times, and BJ wants to do it all over again.

It has been done several times, and the current consensus is that anyone that raises the problem as being two sided (eg there is a problem with crime that needs to be addressed in some areas of the black community, that there is also a problem that needs to be addressed with some of the black community's attitude towards the police as well as a problem with police profiling of black people) gets labelled a racist.

That standpoint is not going to address the problem and its right that the whole subject is reopened and not considered a done deal, in my opinion.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

It has been done several times, and the current consensus is that anyone that raises the problem as being two sided (eg there is a problem with crime that needs to be addressed in some areas of the black community, that there is also a problem that needs to be addressed with some of the black community's attitude towards the police as well as a problem with police profiling of black people) gets labelled a racist.

That standpoint is not going to address the problem and its right that the whole subject is reopened and not considered a done deal, in my opinion.

I disagree. Your conclusion of those many reports and enquiries does not tally with your conclusion.
a) the police (especially) and other institutional racism alienates BAME people.
b) racism in society in general persists.
c) inequality caused by that racism in society in general persists.
d) it is pointless and counter-productive to highlight 'the problem' without identifying the causes. You are only treating the symptoms, not the disease.
e) you need to differentiate between the problem,and the effects. To recognise the effects, and assume it is the problem is illogical, counter-productive and only exacerbates those effects, because you are not addressing the underlying cause.

To suggest that such knowledgeable people and organisations as McPherson, Equality and Human Rights Commission, NHS, Sky, Runnymede Trust, and many many more are racist, is ludicrous.

The problem is racism, the effects are discrimination, inequality, poverty and reduced opportunities which in turn causes crime.

The current consensus may be prevalent among your group.

 

[Lower]

I disagree. Your conclusion of those many reports and enquiries does not tally with your conclusion.
a) the police (especially) and other institutional racism alienates BAME people.
b) racism in society in general persists.
c) inequality caused by that racism in society in general persists.
d) it is pointless and counter-productive to highlight 'the problem' without identifying the causes. You are only treating the symptoms, not the disease.
e) you need to differentiate between the problem,and the effects. To recognise the effects, and assume it is the problem is illogical, counter-productive and only exacerbates those effects.

To suggest that such knowledgeable people and organisations as McPherson, Equality and Human Rights Commission, NHS, Sky, Runnymede Trust, and many many more are racist, is ludicrous.

The problem is racism, the effects are discrimination, inequality and poverty which in turn causes crime.

The current consensus may be prevalent among your group.

Your response just reinforces my point.

In your view it's a done deal, you're not willing to consider an alternate view and you try (sometimes directly, sometimes passive aggressively) to twist my view into that of a racist to shut down the discussion.

For the record, i do not accept that i am racist. However, i am a realist.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

In your view it's a done deal,

It's not a done deal because the government has not implemented the many recommendations proposed, and seeks instead yet a further report.

you're not willing to consider an alternate view

I have considered your view, and I suggest that you are intent on confusing the cause with the effect, the disease with the symptoms, the source for the manifestations.

Crime
Factors including poverty, neglect, low self-esteem, alcohol and drug abuse can be connected to why people break the law. Some are at risk of offending because of their circumstances.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z64tyrd/revision/1
​

Edit.
I would also add, that the perception of crime, and the perpetrators is subjective, enhanced and influenced perhaps by the media.

 

[Lower]

I have considered your view, and I suggest that you are intent on confusing the cause with the effect, the disease with the symptoms, the source for the manifestations.

I am not intent on confusing the cause with the effect, i am intent on addressing both the symptoms and the cause of the disease.

I accept that there are direct reasons, some of which may be based on indirect or structural discrimination, that are the some of the causes of the gang and drug problems within the black community. These reasons undoubtedly need to be addressed

However, nor can you ignore the realities of the situation. Namely, that there is a crime problem that directly affects both the criminals and the general public. In my opinion it needs to be tackled with targeted policing and the support of the black community leaders. Those leaders need to work with both the police and their own community to address the lack of trust in the police from some areas of the community and rebuild that relationship.

Dawn Butler could have been one of those leaders. She had the perfect opportunity to use her experience in a positive way, yet she chose to do the exact opposite. She chose to grandstand, inflame the situation, and spin her experience for political gain. She didn't chose to use her experience as an example of how the police were attempting to tackle crime, work with the public and fundamentally do their jobs. If she wasn't happy with the way she was treated, as an MP she would have been able to speak directly to Cressida Dick or the other senior Police officers to explain how she felt that they had got things wrong. That could and should have been done behind closed doors and the outcome of that discussion could have been made public in a positive way.

But she didn't.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I am not intent on confusing the cause with the effect, i am intent on addressing both the symptoms and the cause of the disease.

I accept that there are direct reasons, some of which may be based on indirect or structural discrimination, that are the some of the causes of the gang and drug problems within the black community. These reasons undoubtedly need to be addressed

However, nor can you ignore the realities of the situation. Namely, that there is a crime problem that directly affects both the criminals and the general public. In my opinion it needs to be tackled with targeted policing and the support of the black community leaders. Those leaders need to work with both the police and their own community to address the lack of trust in the police from some areas of the community and rebuild that relationship.

If you address the effects without addressing the cause, then you are exacerbating the situation, not reducing it.
Moreover, if your addressing the effects increases the very problem that caused the situation in the first place, that policy is not only counter-productive, it is perceived as doubling-down on the real cause.

When high profile BAME people suffer from perceived racial profiling, they have the opportunity and the means to highlight the issue, the cause.
When John Smith, who is an unknown, suffers such discrimination, he does not have the means to highlight his problem. Also, he perceives it as 'the norm' because he's had to endure it all his life, and he doesn't see anything changing any time soon.

Your criticism of high profile BAME people taking the opportunity to highlight their treatment is not addressing the real problem, it is attempting to shift the blame.

 

[Trazor]

If you address the effects without addressing the cause, then you are exacerbating the situation, not reducing it.

Exactly what Dawn Butler did.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Your criticism of high profile BAME people taking the opportunity to highlight their treatment is not addressing the real problem, it is attempting to shift the blame.

Butler did that by lying.

 

[JohnD]

as an MP she would have been able to speak directly to Cressida Dick or the other senior Police officers to explain how she felt that they had got things wrong.

Do you think that would be surprising news they have never heard before?

When someone mentioned it the first time, did that cure the problem?

How about the second, third, fourth.... ten thousandth time?

 

[Brigadier]

Your criticism of high profile BAME people taking the opportunity to highlight their treatment is not addressing the real problem, it is attempting to shift the blame.

Just goes to show that she exhibits poor judgement.
She might just have cemented her vote going forward though, as the candidate that stands with the disaffected.....
So, high office unlikely, but guaranteed safe seat.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Exactly what Dawn Butler did.

Quite the reverse, she highlighted the discretionary nature of police stop and search. A discretion that inevitably creates distrust.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Butler did that by lying.

Hmm, your response is not relevant to my quote.
Additionally, if the subject is subjective, how can you determine if anyone is lying? The body camera footage has not been released to prove one way or t'other. Perhaps there is no other body camera footage.

As one officer approached, Insp Ehikioya said he noticed he had not switched on his body-worn camera and for that reason he refused to leave his car.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-53811375​