gas safety and other trades, PLEASE READ

[mattysupra]

Hi, i would like as much input as possible on this so i can pass on the info.

Basically im a trainer for a few colleges and go out assessing people for NVQ's or should i say QCF's as the NVQ has been re named.

Now this stuff is new to me, if i dont know about it then i can say 99% of people i assess dont know either. (i Know nothing about gas nor do i assess gas installers) To start with...

Gas cookers.

They should be in a vented room? So what happens when a double glazing firm comes in and fits glazing to THEIR standards? What happens when someone fits draft seals to the doors and old windows? What happens when the flooring chap turns up to install a 'sealed' flooring?

We have now created a sealed room, the cooker was installed before it was a sealed room. The 'other' trades have installed there products to there BS standards.
Have we now created a unsafe area?

If the room was already 'sealed' what would YOU as a installer do about it before you installed the ccoker?

Any help will be great guys as i think its about time that all traders was 'educated' to work together.

 

[heatingman]

your obviously not doing gas assessments but something else?

 

[mattysupra]

your obviously not doing gas assessments but something else?

No i dont assess gas. Nobody i work with assess gas. We assess other trades as in flooring, tiling, screeding etc.

Im trying to see what dangers 'Other' trades may be putting people in due to lack of eductaion between trades. Mainly the Gas trades.


As we have no contact with Gas trades im trying through this thread to educate myself and pass on my findings / education you chaps can give me.

Flooring for instance- flooring installers are been pushed into creating a sealed room more and more everyday. Are they creating a danger to try and meet standards?

 

[heatingman]

fair reply.

Providing a window/carpet/flooring fitter does not alter, adapt or block an existing vent no one can bite his ar#e.
If a window has a fitted vent and replacement unit is going in, there are 2 choices.
1) fit new window with equivalent vent
2) Seek advise from competant person.

 

[mattysupra]

fair reply.

Providing a window/carpet/flooring fitter does not alter, adapt or block an existing vent no one can bite his ar#e.
If a window has a fitted vent and replacement unit is going in, there are 2 choices.
1) fit new window with equivalent vent
2) Seek advise from competant person.

SOME INFORMATION I MAY QUOTE COULD BE WRONG BUT TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE AS IM QUOTING OTHER TRADES, PLEASE CORRECT ME IF YOU KNOW DIFFERENT

O.k, well all new windows (as i understand) should have a vent when fitted to a new build / extenstion. However existing windows being replaced do not have to be ventilated. The window for instance could be swapped for a solid panel non opening window when the window before may of had a opening or glass vent.


Now you say seek advice from a competent person. So if a floorlayer is installing a sealed floor and there is a vent or should i say a hole in the floor as most installers will see, they will be told to repair the subfloor and fit the sealed flooring.

They have spoken to a competent person in their 'trade', but in the gas trade the information given out may be wrong.

maybe the same for yourself. You may ring your competent person because there is a sealed floor and they may say it needs a vent. Well you cant put a vent in that floor as its a sealed floor! (well you can but we would need to come up with a 'standard' of how its going to be done)


This is my whole point to this thread so we can try and work together and understand why you need a hole and floorlayers as example dont want a hole!

would it not be nice for you if that new concrete floor had a nice vent pre installed for you and the floorlayer knows why etc etc. (again a standard i can help introduce)

Like i say, the more input the better for me and you, the more i know then the more i can help you all work together. We have a new college just built and i would like to try and start making changes across the trades rather than fighting each other!


EDIT- nice one for you chaps im sure! How would you lot like to change how 'chipboard' floors are installed! or even get rid of them and replace with SCREWED down plywood with no tongue and groove. Basically lift out a 2' x 8' panel maybe in one go????

 

[doitall]

You couldn't even start to answer the question on a diy forum, there's just too many variables, and not just with Gas.

Building regs, cover things like an open-able window or door and or extractors.

Every boiler is different as is every gas fire and cooker/hob, and everyone must comply with the manufacturers instructions for that appliance.

As such no two jobs will ever be the same, and it's got to be down to the tradesmen altering the room/building (doing the work) to get the relevant information that's applicable to the job.

OK some common things like boxing gas pipes in with no duct ventilation, should be general knowledge, but the rest is just plain common sense, if there's a fire in a room to ask questions for example.

Underfloor ventilation is frowned upon, because it gets blocked with lint, dust, dog and cats hair etc.

 

[mattysupra]

As such no two jobs will ever be the same, and it's got to be down to the tradesmen altering the room/building (doing the work) to get the relevant information that's applicable to the job.

.

But this is the issue where 'other ' trades need to be educated.

Refering back to the floorlayer. He does not know he is doing wrong. The issue is down to them not being educated in other trades. They are only installing to their standards. Untill the day that the standards are changed or they are trained to understand other trades they will carry on installing in what 'gas' fitters would say is dangerous practice.

Underfloor ventilation is frowned upon, because it gets blocked with lint, dust, dog and cats hair etc.

Now i have just learnt something myself. So may i ask why some gas fitters cut a hole in the floor and the standard is not to drill maybe a 6" hole in the wall with a vent instead? When gas fitters cut a whole in a floor do they actually check and take readings of airflow through the floor? ( i see many failed wooden floors due to no ventalation under floors along with damp issues and structual isuues that some plummers are strapping gas pipes to. We end up with a floor that can move with a rigid gas pipe strapped to ) They may even cause a vacuum which would do the opposite to the idea of cutting a vent?

Is there a standard of size of air vent to room size v gas appliance maybe? I guess there must be?

Im after the info above please.

You couldn't even start to answer the question on a diy forum, there's just too many variables, and not just with Gas.

I need to start some where mate. The more info you lot can give me the more info i have to start trying to make a change.



Like i say, im trying to gather info that can help us all.

 

[doitall]

I think you're missing the point or I'm not explaining it very well.

We pay thousands of quids to learn the gas trade, then every 5 years we have to pay thousands of more quids to prove we or not numpties.

Lets assume we're going to service a boiler, and there's hundreds of thousands of different makes and model of all ages.

The first thing you do is read the MI unless you're that familiar with the model, simply because they are all different.

On the subject of boilers, and kitchen fitters, some can be boxed in or in cupboards, others need compartment on combustion ventilation, as I said I or anyone else for that matter couldn't possibly list every make/model or eventuality, it would take years.

Common sense and phoning the manufacturer the same as what we have to do normally gets it sorted.

Or put another way, if you don't know, find out or don't do it.

I can see you're well intended, but you are walking through a minefield blindfolded. a little knowledge is very dangerous.

 

[gasbanni]

No building or room is air tight, a gas cooker which is classed as a fluless appliance is ok providing there is an openable door or window to outside. Thats all thats required, dont cover or seal any existing vents is the best advice that you can give.

Size of the room or wether to fix forced extraction is best left to the professional gas fitters. The main thing to look out for is conservatories or extensions with doors or windows opening in to them so that the room containing the appliance no longer has a door or window opening directly to outside.

 

[expertgasman]

Any body carrying out works and thus causing a gas installatiion to be used in a manner contrary to regulations is committingh an offence. If there is a floor vent, for example, and the floor fitter has to remove it or otherwise reduce its effectiveness he is obliged to have a properly qualified person to inspect, asssess and possibly reinstsatee or provide an alternative means of ventilation.

We are not able to provide gas advice on an open forum, and it woud be ridiculous to do so. The initial facts are often misrepresented, and important points missed.

They have spoken to a competent person in their 'trade', but in the gas trade the information given out may be wrong.

And you think you will get better advice on a website?

As we have no contact with Gas trades im trying through this thread to educate myself and pass on my findings / education you chaps can give me.
As said, we spend a huge amount of cash on learninb and updating, why would we give out a whole website full for free, and possibly have someone misunderstand and cause an incident?

We have now created a sealed room, the cooker was installed before it was a sealed room. The 'other' trades have installed there products to there BS standards.
They have now comitted an offence. Simple

EDIT- nice one for you chaps im sure! How would you lot like to change how 'chipboard' floors are installed! or even get rid of them and replace with SCREWED down plywood with no tongue and groove. Basically lift out a 2' x 8' panel maybe in one go????

You must be a powerful guy if you can get the construction industry to change their working practices.

As an assesor, you must realise thaat it takes a lot of time and experience to learn a trade. You must also realise that the training industry is possibly the most leeching of all. Ask thousands of suckers who paid 7/8 grand and loads of time on the promise of an easy £70k income.

 

[Agile]

Matt, I appreciate that you mean well but there is only one main problem with other trades and thats in relation to boiler flues. There is a general total reluctance to obtain appropriate advice and car ports and even sometimes conservatories are installed either over or too close to an existing flue.

There are nowadays only a few appliances left which are not room sealed apart from cookers. Whilst covering air inlet vents is potentially dangerous its not such a common mistake.

The only totally safe advice is that where a gas appliance is involved the advice should always be obtained from an RGI. That does not need to be costly and in most cases all that is required is a ( free ) telephone call to check. It can be made to Gas Safe technical even.

Tony

 

[mattysupra]

There is a general total reluctance to obtain appropriate advice and car ports and even sometimes conservatories are installed either over or too close to an existing flue.

This is what im trying to educate other trades about.

The installer of the conservatory would not of done this on purpose. He obviously does not know he has done wrong. Its simple stuff like this that they need to be told to look out for.

Alot of conservatory fitters also block up airbricks and dont understand that they may now of just caused a issue for a Gas fire maybe. Or the fact they now started off the process of raising the humidity levels under the house, which is now starting to make the solid wood floors fail..... its a massive knock on effect.



All im looking for is simple stuff here of why you shpould not do that. When i know what sort of stuff peopel need to look out for then we will contact the right people to educate us properly or maybe make a video for us etc so we can explane to other trades.

 

[spraggo]

[All im looking for is simple stuff here of why you shpould not do that. When i know what sort of stuff peopel need to look out for then we will contact the right people to educate us properly or maybe make a video for us etc so we can explane to other trades.

In most cases where a gas appliance is installed, the customer will have the installation and user instructions to hand, which will advise you on ventillation requirements for same.

 

[ChrisR]

The issue is down to them not being educated in other trades. They are only installing to their standards.

Not good enough.
Being competent in your own trade would tell you what effects your work might have .
Many of the issues are covered in the Building Regulations. They are law and we all have to abide by them, whether fitting carpets or building houses. They're online so there's no excuse for getting them wrong.

Anyone who does any work is also governed by HASAWA - they mustn't leave anything dangerous as a result of their work. That's not something anyone can duck by saying they don't know. If you don't know enough to know your boundaries then you shouldn't be doing the job.
ANYONE building a conservatory acting with due diligence should realise that you can't build over a boiler flue. You don't need to be trained to know that. If someone died as a result of you doing that, you'd go to prison.
You wouldn't be expected to know the finer requirements, because they need a specialist, like a sparky or a gas fitter. So the responsibility is clear - get someone in. It's not something you can guarantee to cover over the phone or on a web site, though you can do that to check generalities.

 

[mattysupra]

i dont think alot of you understand what sort of basic info im trying to gather here.


As already stated by someone that they have seen consevatories installed to close to a flue or the one i see most days on failed floors is conservatories blocking air bricks.

now this is common knowledge that you dont do this? yes?

Well you would think so. But as it happens every day some people dont know.

Im trying to find out the basic info that gets missed so we can change the way people are trained to point out issues that most think is common knowledge.


There is plenty of stuff that plumbers do that can cause many issues that i could say "well thats obvious you should not of done that" but the plumber is not educated in what ever issue he has caused for the other trade.


Why is that every other trade i speak to on building sites etc will discuss issues with me so we can educate each other but the only trade that does not want to help improve is the plumbing trade?

Im asking for basic info that plumbers "presume" other trades should know.

Im not asking for info on how to calculate vent sizes etc or info on what size a flue should be, im after basic info that you lot must see other trades do wrong that effects yourselves.