gas safety and other trades, PLEASE READ

[expertgasman]

Matt, it would have been useful had you been clearer in the firdt place! But still, you CAN'T "educate" in these circumstances, other than making sure that they are aware that there may be issues. Any answer we give may be misinterpreted, and we are not there to see the whole picture. Also, rules change, and you have no way of knowing this

 

[transam]

Well mattysupra surely the college you are working for should have access to this imformation ?? & if they do not ? why not ?

All or most trades in the construction industry , become involved with or transgress into other trades ? the plumbing heating & gas industry are no different ?

On many occcasions questions are asked on this forum about prices , costs , am I being ripped off ect ect ! how do u answer those questions ? based upon some imfo that is posted !!so do not be to surprised at the response

 

[mattysupra]

Well mattysupra surely the college you are working for should have access to this imformation ?? & if they do not ? why not ?

All or most trades in the construction industry , become involved with or transgress into other trades ? the plumbing heating & gas industry are no different ?

On many occcasions questions are asked on this forum about prices , costs , am I being ripped off ect ect ! how do u answer those questions ? based upon some imfo that is posted !!so do not be to surprised at the response

They may well have the information. There is so many different departments tho that even when you work for them you struggle to get any sence out of anyone. Its takes me weeks to get a answer to the simplist of questions.

I.e- Does this paperwork need to be finished this week? 2 weeks later i will get a reply saying "yes" lol.

It took me 6 months to get the new NVQ paperwork! Then they moan at me because the paperwork wasnt completed 4 months ago!

But i may also add that the NVQ for flooring does not cover any sot of gas safety or why there are airvents etc in floors. The college's i work for is only for undertaking site assessments for them in NVQ's. The Training is run by the institutes etc.

But as for the training side, its down to me what gets taught on the courses. I design and set out the agenda of what will be covered so hence this thread im think of getting some sort of awarness of vents etc covered in the course. Other wise installers will carry on covering them as they have not been told not to.

Im also involved in writting the new apprentiship schemes that will be new to the flooring trade this year, again i think that some more safety should be included.

I have the chance to change things and im trying my best to improve the trade.

Anyway i have got the information i wanted confirmed. My next step will be speaking to people who work with me and discussing what we belive is the best way forward. This may be getting someone through the Gassafe scheme to maybe write something up for us ? maybe we even run a course that we have someone who trains you plumbers working with us? Maybe i get trainning myself to have a deeper understanding? i dont know yet

but i think that something needs to be done about issues i keep seeing every day.

 

[Gasop]

so can you all see how much lack of knowledge there now is?


At least i can now turn around and ask people i see the question - are you allowed to remove a gas cooker?

And then tell them they are not allowed when they belive they are allowed? Or do you all think i should keep my mouth shut and let them carry on putting people in danger because they have not been educated properly?

Or are you all classing this as regs that i cant refer to as i have not been trained as a plumber hence i just let them carry on doing what ever they think is correct?

If you are referring to the disconnection of a gas cooker by unplugging
a bayonet fitting from a self sealing connector and reconnecting then that is permitted under the regulations.( GSIUR Regulation 2)

If you mean disconnecting from fixed pipework then yes that is not
permitted.

You should not be trying to "educate" others until your pitiful knowledge
is vastly improved.
This kind of forum is not the place to get this knowledge as you have no
idea of the qualifications of the posters that give answers
Regulation books, British Standards and guides etc are available to buy.

There may even be college courses and night school for this study.

This kind of forum is not the place to get this knowledge as you have
little idea if the answers you get are correct.

 

[mattysupra]

very true mate, Some one earlier said you are not allowed to disconnect the cooker pipe.

But you say you can?


Goes to show that people are on here that dont know what there talking about then which is dangerous for them to be advicing.

So that is something else i need to check out then.


Also does this not go back to a issue that people say ring a competant person. What if that person has now just given me false advice?

 

[kirkgas]

http://books.hse.gov.uk/hse/public/saleproduct.jsf?catalogueCode=9780717616350


free download gives practical advice as to the regulations, defines the regs in terms easily understood.

To clarify ~ opening door or window means just that, it does not mean trickle ventilation incorporated in to a modern double glazed unit.


Most cooking appliances do not require additional ventilation even if its got eight burners on the hotplate !!!

Floor ventilation tends to be a thing of the past as simply to put a hole in the floor is not acceptable under current regs as trunking has to be installed to an exterior vent.

that is not correct, you and others may not "prefer" this method but can you quote where in the regs it says EVERY under floor vent MUST be ducted to outside

 

[mattysupra]

http://books.hse.gov.uk/hse/public/saleproduct.jsf?catalogueCode=9780717616350


free download gives practical advice as to the regulations, defines the regs in terms easily understood.

To clarify ~ opening door or window means just that, it does not mean trickle ventilation incorporated in to a modern double glazed unit.


Most cooking appliances do not require additional ventilation even if its got eight burners on the hotplate !!!

Floor ventilation tends to be a thing of the past as simply to put a hole in the floor is not acceptable under current regs as trunking has to be installed to an exterior vent.

that is not correct, you and others may not "prefer" this method but can you quote where in the regs it says EVERY under floor vent MUST be ducted to outside

Do you check the airflow under the floor when venting direct to the crawl space?

 

[kirkgas]

the question as to who is allowed to disconnect/reconnect gas cookers is covered in TB025, and is the usual wishy washy statement, ALL cookers connected to a solid pipe must be disconnected and reconnected by GSR guy, those on bayonets can be disconnected/reconnected by the end user to clean etc, IF the appliance is to be disconnected/reconnected by someone as part of their job, kitchen fitter. labourer, floor tiler etc etc there is a care of duty under HSWA to ensure that they do not endanger anybody and must be suitably competant to ensure this, the responsibility for ensuring the person IS competant lies with the responsible person for the site/job, so YES any worker can disconnect a cooker but IF there is a problem how do they prove they are competant, by definition of causing a problem i think they have proved their system doesnt cover all the bases and they would get convicted, the TB finishes by saying anyone doing this kind of work should liase with a suitably qualified GSR contractor

 

[expertgasman]

very true mate, Some one earlier said you are not allowed to disconnect the cooker pipe.

But you say you can?

Goes to show that people are on here that dont know what there talking about then which is dangerous for them to be advicing.

Exactly



Also does this not go back to a issue that people say ring a competant person. What if that person has now just given me false advice?[/quote]


I'm not sure that we have suggested ringing for advice. I suggest ENGAGING a suitably registered Gas Installer, either to inspect and inform, or to carry out the required works. In either case he will be legally responsible for the advice and his work, if any. And either way, the floorlayer etc. should expect an Invoice.

 

[expertgasman]

http://books.hse.gov.uk/hse/public/saleproduct.jsf?catalogueCode=9780717616350


free download gives practical advice as to the regulations, defines the regs in terms easily understood.

To clarify ~ opening door or window means just that, it does not mean trickle ventilation incorporated in to a modern double glazed unit.


Most cooking appliances do not require additional ventilation even if its got eight burners on the hotplate !!!

Floor ventilation tends to be a thing of the past as simply to put a hole in the floor is not acceptable under current regs as trunking has to be installed to an exterior vent.

that is not correct, you and others may not "prefer" this method but can you quote where in the regs it says EVERY under floor vent MUST be ducted to outside

My thoughts entirely, KirkG

Do you check the airflow under the floor when venting direct to the crawl space?

. Yes, obviously, and install if neccesary. You can only use this method if there is no communication underfloor with any other property. In that cas you would have to duct it

 

[mattysupra]

And either way, the floorlayer etc. should expect an Invoice.[/b]

I was waiting for someone to bring that up. The bill would have to be passed onto the home owner as the poor chap fitting the 4x4m room that took him and his mate 1 hour + 30 mins travel + the odd bits of materail they had to use out of there own stock has just earned £36 quid between them!

On top of that you can add in that the home owner has not removed the old carpet etc and poor fitter has to do this for free of charge also


However the home owners refuse to pay an extra £10 to have a door removed and trimmed and refitted to clear the carpet! There are plenty who will refuse the whole job to be installed now and go else where over £10 quid! (yes i see this happen most days)


So we end up with 2 chaps that are now earning £36 quid between them before tax for what is now maybe 2 hours work with maybe £6 of materials?

So they end up walking away with £7 quid an hour before tax? Is it fair for them to pay a gas fitter now?

I bet you would want more than £7 a hour? Or would you be happy to split 50/50 with the fitter?


Well i guess the bill will have to be passed onto the home owner? But the home owner refuses to pay £10 to have a door cut?

All that happens is the customer goes else where to someone that will 'just' get on with the job.

Sad really dont you think?

 

[mattysupra]

http://books.hse.gov.uk/hse/public/saleproduct.jsf?catalogueCode=9780717616350


free download gives practical advice as to the regulations, defines the regs in terms easily understood.

To clarify ~ opening door or window means just that, it does not mean trickle ventilation incorporated in to a modern double glazed unit.


Most cooking appliances do not require additional ventilation even if its got eight burners on the hotplate !!!

Floor ventilation tends to be a thing of the past as simply to put a hole in the floor is not acceptable under current regs as trunking has to be installed to an exterior vent.

that is not correct, you and others may not "prefer" this method but can you quote where in the regs it says EVERY under floor vent MUST be ducted to outside

My thoughts entirely, KirkG

Do you check the airflow under the floor when venting direct to the crawl space?

. Yes, obviously, and install if neccesary. You can only use this method if there is no communication underfloor with any other property. In that cas you would have to duct it

May i ask how you check the airflow? (intrested and not trying to test you mate)

 

[kirkgas]

re the question on checking airflow, airflow to me means air speed, which will be different on different days, however if you mean free air, then i measure it, if the property has airbricks i use a vent measuring stick which is basically a turned aluminium stick with 5,6,7,8,9,10mm turned sections, this allows me to know the inside dimension of the air brick, then i do the usual calculation to determine what the total free air is to the solum, i then measure the floor vent and check the appliance data badge to determine whether the supplied free air meets the requirement of the appliance, i also phone the local Building Control office to check if the area i'm working in is known to have a Radon Gas Issue, if so i duct the vent to outside, (i made the last bit up)

 

[mattysupra]

re the question on checking airflow, airflow to me means air speed, which will be different on different days, however if you mean free air, then i measure it, if the property has airbricks i use a vent measuring stick which is basically a turned aluminium stick with 5,6,7,8,9,10mm turned sections, this allows me to know the inside dimension of the air brick, then i do the usual calculation to determine what the total free air is to the solum, i then measure the floor vent and check the appliance data badge to determine whether the supplied free air meets the requirement of the appliance, i also phone the local Building Control office to check if the area i'm working in is known to have a Radon Gas Issue, if so i duct the vent to outside, (i made the last bit up)

LOL @ the last bit!

Well we both use the same system basically as we use to check also for flooring.


Well all i can conclude to that is that there alot of plumbers who dont check as the lack of vent (maybe caused by blocked airbricks, builders rubble, etc) can cause masive issues with floorcoverings along with the issues of unsafe gas appliances.

But who is to say the outside airbricks never got covered up after the gas appliance was installed?


PS, your highly tuned aluminum measuring device. Do you have this calabrated? I hear that they can give wrong readings with temperature change.

 

[kirkgas]

re the question on checking airflow, airflow to me means air speed, which will be different on different days, however if you mean free air, then i measure it, if the property has airbricks i use a vent measuring stick which is basically a turned aluminium stick with 5,6,7,8,9,10mm turned sections, this allows me to know the inside dimension of the air brick, then i do the usual calculation to determine what the total free air is to the solum, i then measure the floor vent and check the appliance data badge to determine whether the supplied free air meets the requirement of the appliance, i also phone the local Building Control office to check if the area i'm working in is known to have a Radon Gas Issue, if so i duct the vent to outside, (i made the last bit up)

LOL @ the last bit!

Well we both use the same system basically as we use to check also for flooring.


Well all i can conclude to that is that there alot of plumbers who dont check as the lack of vent (maybe caused by blocked airbricks, builders rubble, etc) can cause masive issues with floorcoverings along with the issues of unsafe gas appliances.

But who is to say the outside airbricks never got covered up after the gas appliance was installed?


PS, your highly tuned aluminum measuring device. Do you have this calabrated? I hear that they can give wrong readings with temperature change.

TBH i dont i just like to be a devil with some things, for the life of me i can never remember what it is actually called, im sure someone will remind me, it is actually quite a useful toy, usually pick them up free at the trade shows, but you can buy them