Gay

[johnny_t]

Of course, how you choose to think is up to you, but I'm not sure it helps to talk in terms of normal or natural.

Homosexuality is still a minority pastime, so in that sense its not 'normal'. It may or may not be 'natural' but then again neither is wearing clothes or driving cars, but no-one decries those as abominations - Maybe some people are born gay, maybe some people choose to be gay because it looks like a lot of fun, I don't know, but the fact is that if what two adults get up to bothers you so much, then you maybe need to be asking yourself the question why. Even though 94% of the population don't play Bridge, does it bother you if consenting couples settle down for a session at night, or is it just sexuality issues that are a concern ?

Equating homosexuality and padophiles (and, incidentally, Gary is a heterosexual paedophile, AFAIK) is entirely spurious in my opinion. If you want me to look in my Crytal Ball, I expect he'll pop up in the next series of Celebrity Big Brother.

 

[hermes]

The fact is that it is normal to be heterosexual, and abnormal (or ****) to be homosexual.
:

It's as normal for a gay to be gay as it is for you to be straight or gay or whatever you are. It's as normal as having size 12 feet or having a preference for blondes.

Being straight or **** should not be seen, or encouraged to be seen, as a lifestyle choice.

Why not? What does it matter? If someone decides they prefer the lifestyle of being straight then who are you to tell them they should be otherwise? Who cares what people do in the bedroom?

 

[meldrew's_mate]

Ooops, thought this might kick-off.*

Points to note are as follows (sorry it's the short version but I don't get paid unless I work, and would like to get paid today)

1. the original discussion was over the effect of name calling on a small boy, not what consenting adults in private get up to. Therefore his early lifestyle choices are being presented to him by his role models, hardly a free choice and not the same as with an adult. Hope that clears that one up.

2. What is normal is what is accepted as normal by "the man in the street". Whilst the PC lot may be pushing for homosexuality to be accepted as such, most people don't have demonstrating against it as high on their agenda as, say, feeding the kids, paying the mortgage, or painting the spare bedroom. So whilst a "Gay Pride" march may be fun for those marching, there are many not marching who don't see the need to march against it until it directly affects their lives (i.e shunted down the housing list for not being homosexual.)

*By the way, the real kick off is at 5pm today, ITV.

 

[hermes]

1. the original discussion was over the effect of name calling on a small boy, not what consenting adults in private get up to. Therefore his early lifestyle choices are being presented to him by his role models, hardly a free choice
. .

Everybody's lifestyle choices are presented to them by their role models, ie. their parents. What is your point?

2. What is normal is what is accepted as normal by "the man in the street".

I'm "the man in the street" and I don't give a stuff about other peoples sex lives, unlike yourself, who seems to have quite a keen interest.

Whilst the PC lot may be pushing for homosexuality to be accepted as such, most people don't have demonstrating against it as high on their agenda as, say, feeding the kids, paying the mortgage, or painting the spare bedroom

Whilst most ordinary people don't feel the need to make a song and dance about whether someone is gay or not, the right-wing bigot brigade seem to need to make a point that anyone who enjoys more than the missionary position once a week is perverted.

 

[johnny_t]

Ooops, thought this might kick-off.*

Points to note are as follows (sorry it's the short version but I don't get paid unless I work, and would like to get paid today)

1. the original discussion was over the effect of name calling on a small boy, not what consenting adults in private get up to. Therefore his early lifestyle choices are being presented to him by his role models, hardly a free choice and not the same as with an adult. Hope that clears that one up.

2. What is normal is what is accepted as normal by "the man in the street". Whilst the PC lot may be pushing for homosexuality to be accepted as such, most people don't have demonstrating against it as high on their agenda as, say, feeding the kids, paying the mortgage, or painting the spare bedroom. So whilst a "Gay Pride" march may be fun for those marching, there are many not marching who don't see the need to march against it until it directly affects their lives (i.e shunted down the housing list for not being homosexual.)

*By the way, the real kick off is at 5pm today, ITV.

I think that is the point of the discussion though. You see homosexuality as abnormal or dirty or something, and I dare say that has partly arisen from how you were taught to view it as you grew up. Some people get over how they are conditioned, some don't, but I think what Securespark was trying to do was to not leave his child with the impression that homosexuality was a bad thing per se and not grow up to view it that way.

The second point is debatable as to whether people would be going out on 'ban gay' rallies if they weren't so busy with other stuff. I don't think they would myself, as I think most people aren't that bothered by what others get up to, but only have a feeling for that rather than any proof. Do you really think that gay people get preferential treatment when it comes to housing lists though ? I can't see it myself.

As for the real kick-off, it seems a bit unfair to me that we've got to play two countries now, instead of just one....

 

[securespark]

(front or back)...The fact is that it is normal to be heterosexual, and abnormal (or ****) to be homosexual. For **** substitute a word beginning with "qu" and rhymes with beer.

What I find very disturbing is that you find being offensive funny.

I am silent about my views because I don't want to spend the time arguing with those who want to brow beat me into accepting their way, and I probably share that view with the majority of the population.Tthat's just the way I am, and I see no reason to change it to make the PC brigade feel better.

No. You are silent about your views because you know that the vast majority of folk are not homophobic like you, and that if you aired your views as often as you wanted you would make yourself look a right pillock.

Contrary to your twisted view, the majority of the population do not view homosexuality as "abnormal", thank f*ck. This is exactly what I don't want my boys to believe. Why should someone's sexuality make any difference as to how another sees them? Does it make a difference if you are black, yellow or brown? Does it make a difference if you are a Christian or Buddist? Does it make a difference if you support United or City? Does it make a difference if you drive a VW, Ford or Vauxhall?

If you think it does, then there is something seriously wrong somewhere.

BTW, as an aside, do you feel the same way about lesbians? Thought not.

 

[Adam_151]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ins't there indeed a stigma?,

If there is, I wonder why that might be?

its not 'normal' and most of us find the very thought of it disturbing, I'm all for civil liberties as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, but they should accept that they are abnormal and not expect society to consider it as normal.

Could it, perhaps, be because of people like you?

You got me there, ban, its exactly because of people like me, and until quite recently I didn't realise I was in as much of a minority, and I definatly don't think there is anything wrong with my viewpoint, I agree entirely that it is a 'homophobic' viewpoint, but I don't see that thats necessaraly wrong

(BTW - I don't know what kind of backward and bigoted community you live in, but in the real world "most of us" do not find the very thought of homosexuality disturbing.)

Perfectly normal suburbia, and that comes as a supprise

I know this is not aimed at me, but as I share many of the same few points, I'll respond to it:

What I find very disturbing is that you find being offensive funny.

Contrary to your twisted view, the majority of the population do not view homosexuality as "abnormal", thank f*ck. This is exactly what I don't want my boys to believe.

Sorry, I don't believe people are automatically gay or straight, in the way that people are automatically black or white, or male or female. There is (IMHO) a sizeable amount of choice and social conditioning in there, I don't know about what you expect from your kid, but if I ever had a kid, I certainly wouldn't want them to be a bloody homo! of course there will be people who take that path whatever societity expects, but there are probably many people who could've gone either way and only turned into homos because society allowed their weirdness to be accepted.

I know it sounds a bit heavy handed, but if we go all liberal, where will it end, as someone else has said, should we accept glitter and his type as normal?!

BTW, as an aside, do you feel the same way about lesbians? Thought not.

Well if I said I found the thought of lesbians as disgusting, I'd be lying, but I dare say the whole thing is flipped for straight females (well at least homophobic ones). But I don't accept lesbians as normal either, and I have a (not an ever so close one though) friend thats lesbian (I still treat her as I always did, but I now see her as weird and abnormal, and nothing will chance that, and I'm sure it'd be the same if guy I knew turned out to be gay [though with added disgust... I can't help that])



Throughout this post I've had trouble putting my excact thoughts into words, so they may well appear fragmented and somewhat illogical

 

[jbonding]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ins't there indeed a stigma?,

If there is, I wonder why that might be?

its not 'normal' and most of us find the very thought of it disturbing, I'm all for civil liberties as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, but they should accept that they are abnormal and not expect society to consider it as normal.

Could it, perhaps, be because of people like you?

You got me there, ban, its exactly because of people like me, and until quite recently I didn't realise I was in as much of a minority, and I definatly don't think there is anything wrong with my viewpoint, I agree entirely that it is a 'homophobic' viewpoint, but I don't see that thats necessaraly wrong

(BTW - I don't know what kind of backward and bigoted community you live in, but in the real world "most of us" do not find the very thought of homosexuality disturbing.)

Perfectly normal suburbia, and that comes as a supprise

I know this is not aimed at me, but as I share many of the same few points, I'll respond to it:

What I find very disturbing is that you find being offensive funny.

Contrary to your twisted view, the majority of the population do not view homosexuality as "abnormal", thank f*ck. This is exactly what I don't want my boys to believe.

Sorry, I don't believe people are automatically gay or straight, in the way that people are automatically black or white, or male or female. There is (IMHO) a sizeable amount of choice and social conditioning in there, I don't know about what you expect from your kid, but if I ever had a kid, I certainly wouldn't want them to be a b****y homo! of course there will be people who take that path whatever societity expects, but there are probably many people who could've gone either way and only turned into homos because society allowed their weirdness to be accepted.

I know it sounds a bit heavy handed, but if we go all liberal, where will it end, as someone else has said, should we accept glitter and his type as normal?!

BTW, as an aside, do you feel the same way about lesbians? Thought not.

Well if I said I found the thought of lesbians as disgusting, I'd be lying, but I dare say the whole thing is flipped for straight females (well at least homophobic ones). But I don't accept lesbians as normal either, and I have a (not an ever so close one though) friend thats lesbian (I still treat her as I always did, but I now see her as weird and abnormal, and nothing will chance that, and I'm sure it'd be the same if guy I knew turned out to be gay [though with added disgust... I can't help that])



Throughout this post I've had trouble putting my excact thoughts into words, so they may well appear fragmented and somewhat illogical

im sure they would love you if you had any, also you would be the last to find out and lose out on so much.
look around and look closely you may be shocked to find out who's gay and who's in the closet. If only you could open your eyes

 

[johnny_t]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ins't there indeed a stigma?,

If there is, I wonder why that might be?

its not 'normal' and most of us find the very thought of it disturbing, I'm all for civil liberties as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, but they should accept that they are abnormal and not expect society to consider it as normal.

Could it, perhaps, be because of people like you?

You got me there, ban, its exactly because of people like me, and until quite recently I didn't realise I was in as much of a minority, and I definatly don't think there is anything wrong with my viewpoint, I agree entirely that it is a 'homophobic' viewpoint, but I don't see that thats necessaraly wrong

(BTW - I don't know what kind of backward and bigoted community you live in, but in the real world "most of us" do not find the very thought of homosexuality disturbing.)

Perfectly normal suburbia, and that comes as a supprise

I know this is not aimed at me, but as I share many of the same few points, I'll respond to it:

What I find very disturbing is that you find being offensive funny.

Contrary to your twisted view, the majority of the population do not view homosexuality as "abnormal", thank f*ck. This is exactly what I don't want my boys to believe.

Sorry, I don't believe people are automatically gay or straight, in the way that people are automatically black or white, or male or female. There is (IMHO) a sizeable amount of choice and social conditioning in there, I don't know about what you expect from your kid, but if I ever had a kid, I certainly wouldn't want them to be a b****y homo! of course there will be people who take that path whatever societity expects, but there are probably many people who could've gone either way and only turned into homos because society allowed their weirdness to be accepted.

I know it sounds a bit heavy handed, but if we go all liberal, where will it end, as someone else has said, should we accept glitter and his type as normal?!

BTW, as an aside, do you feel the same way about lesbians? Thought not.

Well if I said I found the thought of lesbians as disgusting, I'd be lying, but I dare say the whole thing is flipped for straight females (well at least homophobic ones). But I don't accept lesbians as normal either, and I have a (not an ever so close one though) friend thats lesbian (I still treat her as I always did, but I now see her as weird and abnormal, and nothing will chance that, and I'm sure it'd be the same if guy I knew turned out to be gay [though with added disgust... I can't help that])



Throughout this post I've had trouble putting my excact thoughts into words, so they may well appear fragmented and somewhat illogical

Good post Adam! I may not agree with the way of thinking, but I do like the way you've been honest about what you think, rather than try to make an argument of it. You know people will disagree, but you've not tried to hold yourself back.

This may sound a bit 'new age', but the only thing I can say is that the only person you really hurt when you let things (that are, at the end of the day, nothing to do with you and nothing you can do anything about) create negative energy within you, is yourself. If you and I were absolutely identical in every way, and the only difference was that you allowed yourself to get bent out of shape by having gay people around, and I didn't, then I would be the happier person.

 

[noodlz]

Johnny_t makes a whole lot of sense and it's well put...top man!

Adam, having read many of your other posts it's clear that you're an intelligent guy and it's commendable that you try to put your point without descending into a homophobic rant, but if you make comments like "bloody homo" you will most probably close off the possibility of a reasoned debate. This is a sensitive issue and one that many feel very strongly about, but in order to discuss it constructively we need to try to be dispassionate in doing so.

To be honest, I do think I see where you're coming from, and I do to a certain extent have sympathy with some of your concerns, but the world is made of many shades of grey and one aspect of a person's being, especially if it does not directly harm anyone else, should not mean they are demonised. Many amazing people are and have been gay, but things they have contributed in one way or another has enriched the world....look at many artists, actors, writers, politicians, every walk of life really.

It is important to make the distinction between paedophiles and gays and unfair to align the two....as has been said paedophiles can be heterosexual. Heterosexual male rapists should not mean that heterosexual men are condemned, neither should homosexual consenting men be condemned in this regard. Look at the issue of homosexuality itself by all means but try to keep the distinctions clear.

When it comes to your own children, of course it may be a disappointment in some ways if you feel they were to be different in this way and most probably would not then give you grandchildren, but they'd still be your flesh and blood. Parents ought to see the great qualities they do have, not the inadequacies they think they have.

Maybe it is genetics, maybe social influence with some, but it'd be difficult for any parent to control a child's tendencies, indeed, sometimes making something so taboo can drive them towards it. Do you think there is no homosexuality in countries which even imprison people for it or worse?

Maybe there are some who act in a way to shock people and if so, so what, it's their problem, but as long as it doesn't go to the extent of harming someone else, let them be and if they are doing it for attention just don't give them the reaction the seek.

It's a huge world out there and we can associate with whom we choose to a great extent, for the others, if you don't personally agree with their lifestyles and they're not directly harming you, live and let live, else it's one unpleasant uphill struggle.

As jbonding says, there are a lot of people around who you may not know are gay, and the more you go through life you'll probably find there will be some of you respect a great deal, regardless.

 

[joe-90]

One thing that psychologists agree on is that no-one is 100% hetro and no-one is 100% homo and (even more surprisingly) no-one is 50-50 bisexual.

We are all in the areas either side of bisexual.

Personally I'd say that I was 85-15 leaning on the hetrosexual side.

So there ya go.

It's also pretty well accepted that those that shout the loudest about 'homos' are worried because they know they are nearer the middle (bisexual) than they like to acknowledge.


joe

 

[empip]

Just maybe, it could be the thought that 'new recruits' are required -- youngsters are being groomed, especially when vulnerable.

I have encountered a fair few gay fellows in my time, the younger ones were fine ...and not at all easily recognised as different.
I did notice - enough of the older guys seemed to be constantly 'suggestive' during conversation - for me to recognise the trait. perhaps they were becoming desperate?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I definatly don't think there is anything wrong with my viewpoint, I agree entirely that it is a 'homophobic' viewpoint, but I don't see that thats necessaraly wrong

It is no more "wrong" (and no more "right") than a prejudice against people with red hair, or who are left-handed (which are also perfectly natural conditions, but undeniably not normal ones).

I know it sounds a bit heavy handed, but if we go all liberal, where will it end, as someone else has said, should we accept glitter and his type as normal?!

You're pathetic.

On reflection I'm revising this, because it's almost an ad hominem fallacy.

I'm changing it to:

That's pathetic.

Well if I said I found the thought of lesbians as disgusting, I'd be lying,

So it's only male homosexuality you find disgusting?

 

[securespark]

My point, Ban.

 

[markdoncaster]

Bloody hell...all this about sexuality. I'm gay, sane, sorted & happy.
I'm guessing that the majority of you guys out there are sane, sorted and happy too, what does the preference for human for have to do with anything??...If i was straight i'd still be crap at plumbing in a shower.