Kitchen Sockets - Additional sockets

Joined
29 Oct 2016
Messages
23
Reaction score
1
Country
United Kingdom
Good evening all, hope everyone is doing well. I have a couple of questions that I am hoping you guys in the know can help with.

1. Can I install additional sockets in my kitchen?

Currently I have 5 sockets(2 x 2 gang 1 x 1 gang) along one of the walls with an additional 2 gang socket on the wall next to it and I think a hidden 2 Gang in the back of a cupboard that powers a washing machine and the hob igniter (need to confirm if this is on this circuit or the original house ring. The rest of the house seems to be fed off a separate circuit which look to be a ring main (Ring Final, I believe its now called) on its own breaker.

The sockets in the kitchen I want to add attentional sockets to look to be on a radial circuit (need to double check), (with a spur off it already to a 2 gang socket in the livingroom as the cable travels from the CU to the kitchen via the garage wall, hence I can see the junction box and the spur).

Can I extend this radial in the kitchen to add another 2 or 3 2 gang sockets on the 3rd kitchen wall? (U Shaped Kitchen) id also like to install an external socket outside and a outdoor light on the other side of this wall, can the radial end in the outside socket with a spur off that for the light? via a 3A fuse, as i think it would be required rather then the outside light being on the 32A breaker.

Existing circuit (need to double check cable runs):

CU ---x-----> Kitchen 1G socket ------> Kitchen 2G socket -------> Kitchen 2G socket --------> Hidden 2G socket
|
---> Spur to LR 2G socket

However it could be as follows based on the physical position of the sockets and the parts of the cable I can see running along the wall:

--------> Hidden 2G socket
|
CU ---x-----> Kitchen 2G socket ------> Kitchen 2G socket -------> Kitchen 1G socket
|
---> Spur to LR 2G socket

Everything in this house seems to have been bodged at one point or another so anything is possible.

2. I currently have a electric oven and gas hob with an electric igniter, the oven is connected on its own circuit via a 40A breaker. This seems to terminate in a large Twin & Earth cable that comes out the wall and directly into the oven via a wall switch. The gas hob igniter is terminated in a plug and plugged in to a socket (hidden socket above).

Should I terminate this cable from the wall in a proper cooker termination point and run a flex to the oven from this, secondly the hob ignitor, can this be wired to the same circuit so the cooker switch isolates both the oven and cooker rather then just the oven, I guess I cant directly connect this to the 40A circuit and would need to spur it off via a 3A fused spur?

Thanks in advance!
 
Sponsored Links
As regards the kitchen sockets, if it is protected at 32a, you need to confirm if it IS a radial circuit, and also confirm the cable sizes. It is possible some parts of the circuit may be wired in different size cable. A 32a radial circuit should be wired in 4mm2 cable, and spurs supplying only one accessory may be used in 2.5mm2.
 
Thanks both!

I believe it's a radial as it's only a single t+e from the CU to the sockets along the wall, it's in conduit on the back of the wall so I will have a look and see what the spec is. It's definitely bigger then the 2.5mm2 from memory,. The original socket in the garage has two wires to it, same as the other originals and in the CU I see two leads go into that breaker so looks like a ring, so definitely believe I have both types but I'll have a proper check, I'll pull a socket and check if there is power on one or both legs of both circuits.

The house had a old wylex rewireable fuse board when I moved in but was replaced 2 and a bit years ago with a new split CU with RCD protection.

However with all the other bodges I've found in this place (ex rental, everything done on the cheap) I worry things are not done properly.

An example is one of the sockets in the living room looks to have been moved for some reason up and over a few inches, and the feed now comes down the wall at almost a 45 Deg angle from it's original and correct vertical drop, god knows how I didn't drive a nail into it putting up pictures expecting the feed to be in a prescribed zone. This then I believe goes off behind the fireplace where I found an old round lighting style JB linking it to another wire that goes down and the along behind the skirting (and I mean just run along the floor behind it and not even secured to anything going to another socket.

I've also found sockets with loose connections that had arced and started to melt. As well as the same in the fcu for the boiler that was not even screwed to the wall and stuck on the wall with plaster!

No idea how the new CU install passed inspection when I'm finding all these issues, apparently it had the full inspection and I have the certificate etc. Then again the bathroom install we had done has since leaked twice in 2 years from the toilet and was part of the reason for the new CU install as we had new lights and an extractor added so has to bring the CU up to date as part of the bathroom work so used a sparky supplies by the bathroom installer company. And as above based on their workmanship of the bathroom installer I don't rate their supplied sparky to be any better.
 
Ok so what I think is a radial to the kitchen is on a 16A breaker not a 32A

The other sockets in the house that I believe are on a Ring final are on a 32A, and his two sets of t&e going to the breaker. So I'm sure its a ring. Could be two parallel radals one for each floor? But don't think that's allowed.

So I guess I can extend the radial in the kitchen adding 3 more 2G sockets and one outside? Then spur off that via a fcu to a outside light as well?

Thanks.
 
Sponsored Links
It depends where you live, and if your worried about breaking the law, in Wales the kitchen is still a special location, personally if I want extra sockets I will fit them, but we should make you aware.

I have just extended the ring final in my wife's bedroom and landing, very little cable used, and I know the loop impedance is no where near the limit. I share meters with my son, he will test next time he is up.

There are two considerations, one is the volt drop, the other is will the magnetic part of the trip still work with a short circuit. So there is very little left which is voltage dependent except for non inverter fridges and freezers, and the volt drop would need to be a lot to affect them. A curve B MCB/RCBO needs 5 times the thermal trip current to flow to work the magnetic trip, so a B16 would need 80 amps to flow, to be on safe side we add 5% so around 85 amp for the calculation, so 230/85 = 2.73Ω for the earth loop impedance. As to if with RCD protection this is still so important I don't know, but again we should make you aware of it. With B32 looking for 1.37Ω.

House design makes a difference, this house split front and rear for sockets, this reduces cable used, so better loop impedance, and it better shares the load, plus it means if one circuit fails, you can use extension leads without them running up/down stairs, however newer homes went to upper and lower floors, mainly so the split for sockets was same as lighting, so if you do some thing to trip the RCD you don't also loose the lights, this house built before we were using RCD's, and now all RCBO so does not matter anyway.

As to safe routes, with plaster board walls, the cables can move, unlikely one will hit one, but also hard to be sure cables are in the safe zones. With brick walls yes there is a real problem, and my meter Testing for live.jpg does not seem to detect cables buried very well, it will detect live wires non contact seen here with all 4 bars showing, but NCV (non contact voltage) is not very good at finding wires in the wall.

If you are aware of what should be done, even if you don't do it, you should be OK, as one is very careful when you know you can't test, however I did have two faults in the last house, and until second fault, I was unaware the ring final was broken, and it is a quick test when fitting a socket to check the ring is not broken.

However I found at work, some one had added with 2.5 mm² extra sockets around a room, splitting the 4 mm² to do so, clearly done by an electrician, as always an electrician on site, but he clearly thought 32A means a ring final, but it was in fact a radial.
 
Not allowed, but happens when some loose connection in a socket arcs and melts and breaks the ring
That is what I thought reading the regs, hence I believe it's a ring on the original sockets. And the kitchen is a radial from when it was refurbed as it's only them that are on their own breaker, every other socket in the house is on the B32A breaker with the two cables going to it and the neutrals also combined together.

So it sounds like I'd have no issues extending the radial to add 3 more sockets then provided I use sufficient sized cable. I guess I could use bigger wire then needed to ensure minimal voltage drop if I remember my electrical engineering and electrical servicing training correctly (changed career several years ago to IT)
 
House design makes a difference, this house split front and rear for sockets, this reduces cable used, so better loop impedance,
This is something you've frequently repeated in various threads, however thinking about it I don't think it is true.

Consider up/down. Two equal size rings one on each floor with 2 additional cables maybe 3m long each to reach the upper ring.
Consider back/front. Four equal size half rings two on each floor with 4 additional cables maybe 3m long to reach the upper half rings.
 
This is something you've frequently repeated in various threads, however thinking about it I don't think it is true.

Consider up/down. Two equal size rings one on each floor with 2 additional cables maybe 3m long each to reach the upper ring.
Consider back/front. Four equal size half rings two on each floor with 4 additional cables maybe 3m long to reach the upper half rings.
It is down to 1/3 rule on drilling beams.
 
. I guess I could use bigger wire then needed to ensure minimal voltage drop if I remember my electrical engineering and electrical servicing training correctly (changed career several years ago to IT)
You can't change the breaker though, just because you've tacked on a length of 6mm onto a 4mm, so you still need to assess whether 32A is sufficient for what you plan to add, appliance wise
 
You can't change the breaker though, just because you've tacked on a length of 6mm onto a 4mm, so you still need to assess whether 32A is sufficient for what you plan to add, appliance wise
That's a very good point! I've had to change plan a bit after investigating the wiring. It turns out the 3 sockets on the wall that I thought are on a radial are and are the only ones. The one at the end of the kitchen I thought was also on this radial is actually on the original ring, with the hidden socket in the cupboard a spur off this socket.

So my plan is to remove said spur socket and replace with a 13A fcu and then run my new sockets from that. Believe this is an acceptable plan. As the 13A fcu will protect the 2.5mm2 cable from the socket on the ring to the fcu And to the sockets. I know this is not the best way to do it but think this is my only plan, as that's the only place I can really spur off is that ring final and the cable is already in the wall down to the socket in the cupboard under the worktop, where I want the sockets is an external wall next to this and would be the shortest run. Know that would limit my sockets to 13A max shared over all of them but should be enough for the washing machine and a microwave or coffee machine. Probably not both at the same time though.
 
You could also extend the ring if you‘ve got space for connectors and extra wires (disconnect one leg at the existing socket, extend to the new sockets, then run a new leg from the last new leg back to the existing socket). If the new sockets won’t likely feed anything power-hungry I‘d go for the fused spur though, 13 amps is a lot of power.
 
You could also extend the ring if you‘ve got space for connectors and extra wires (disconnect one leg at the existing socket, extend to the new sockets, then run a new leg from the last new leg back to the existing socket). If the new sockets won’t likely feed anything power-hungry I‘d go for the fused spur though, 13 amps is a lot of power.
Agree 13A is probably more then enough. I can always convert to a ring if needed later. issue I have is there is currently one 2.5mm2 cable from the socket to the cupboard socket that im swapping out for a FCU. this cable is in the wall and is tiled over and goes behind the worktop so not easy to chase out and I dont think there is enough space to run a second cable down the bit of conduit thats already there or i would have done that.

Maybe when i remodel the kitchen I will replace that cable then for a ring.
 
If it's in capping you might be able to get a second cable through but if not I believe it's perfectly OK to have the FCU on the existing single cable. It will still protect the single 2.5 T&E against overload.
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top