Planning Kitchen Wall Electrics - Is This Good? [PIC]

[securespark]

Old bit of conduit?

Lead gas installation pipe?

Or lead sheathed cable?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

What marvellous sets of definitions and guidelines.

Can someone please help me to understand, with this radial circuit (all the accessories are sockets), how many sockets are connected directly in the circuit, how many unfused spurs there are, and how many sockets on unfused spurs there are in total.

 

[EFLImpudence]

In the 14th Edition, it was a numbered regulation:
A38: For ring final sub-circuits complying with A30-33, the total number of spurs shall not exceed the total number of socket outlets and stationary appliances connected directly in the ring.
The definition of "Spur" in the 14th Edition is defined as "a branch cable connected to a ring circuit."
(So presumably that must have included both fused and unfused spurs).

That does not specify only one spur per point.

In the 15th Edition, it was moved to the Appendices:

Appendix 5: The total number of fused spurs is unlimited, but the number of non-fused spurs does not exceed the total number of socket outlets and items of stationary equipment connected directly in the circuit.
The definition of "Spur" in the 15th Edition is defined as "a branch cable connected to a ring or radial final circuit."

That does not specify only one spur per point.

In the 16th Edition, it was moved to the Appendices of the OSG:

OSG Appendix 8: The total number of fused spurs is unlimited, but the number of non-fused spurs does not exceed the total number of socket outlets and items of stationary equipment connected directly in the circuit.
The definition of "Spur" in the 16th Edition is "a branch from a ring final circuit".

The OSG is irrelevant.

16th Edition AMD 2: 2004:

OSG Appendix 8: The total number of fused spurs is unlimited, but the number of non-fused spurs should not exceed the total number of socket outlets and items of stationary equipment connected directly in the circuit.
The definition of "Spur" in the 16th AMD is unchanged from the 16th.

The OSG is irrelevant.

17th Edition 2001 AMD 1:

OSG Appendix H: The total number of fused spurs is unlimited, but the number of non-fused spurs should not exceed the total number of socket outlets and items of stationary equipment connected directly in the circuit.
The definition of "Spur" in the 17th AMD is "a branch from a ring or radial final circuit".

The OSG is irrelevant.


Thank you for the information.

 

[John D v2.0]

When it gets to the stage of being satisfactory (by better balance), would my spur also be acceptable?

Good question, I think that's the core of our debate.
I'm contending that keeping it ring like will gravitate all loads towards the centre of the ring, so given any arbitrary cable routing and sockets, the true ring will always be better distributed than a with with paralleled sections. Although you have to of course watch the loop impedence at the farthest point.
However we need Johnw2 to really get into the maths!

PS thanks secure spark for digging out the regs. So we can spur as much as we like from one point of the ring as long as it's only single accessories on the end? But we should be aware of ring balancing issues and avoid doing it close to the cu.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Just stop using ring finals - an awful lot of problems just go away then.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Yes, that's a good idea. Not really any point since the demise of 3036 fuses.

I'm contending that keeping it ring like will gravitate all loads towards the centre of the ring, so given any arbitrary cable routing and sockets, the true ring will always be better distributed than a with with paralleled sections.

Yes, but not always the case - but you have to work it out.

Although you have to of course watch the loop impedence at the farthest point.
However we need Johnw2 to really get into the maths!

He has done it before (can't remember the numbers), and the ring was much more tolerant than you would at first think.

PS thanks secure spark for digging out the regs.

Yes.

So we can spur as much as we like from one point of the ring as long as it's only single accessories on the end?

Yes,

But we should be aware of ring balancing issues and avoid doing it close to the cu.

Yes, but as with John's calculation - a lot nearer than you would first think. Not 49:1 though.

 

[deadshort]

Just stop using ring finals - an awful lot of problems just go away then.

BAS, I never thought it would happen, i agree with you !

DS

 

[SimonH2]

Gas is caveman compared to induction, and the sooner it goes away the better

I can see pros and cons - but I'd go for an induction hob these days. Also, speaking as a landlord, an electric hob is one less gas appliance to pay for testing every year - not to mention that with electric, I can legally change it myself if needed; while with gas, I have to pay someone else to do it (and work to their availability).

Until a power cut

Yeah, but we don't get many of those ... yet.

 

[winston1]

Started cutting the chases until my Henry hoover cut out (overheat - hopefully will start working again when cooled):

It's a Henry or a Hoover, (both are manufacturers), but it can't be both.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

BAS, I never thought it would happen, i agree with you !

You've got to be right sometimes.

 

[gman76]

It's a Henry or a Hoover, (both are manufacturers), but it can't be both.

No, Henry is not a manufacturer. They are made by Numatic International.

Hah!

Put that in yer pipe and smoke it Mr Pedant!

 

[securespark]

Maybe he's been smoking too much.....

 

[securespark]

That does not specify only one spur per point.

Depends what you mean by "point"...

A40: ..........Not more than two socket outlets, or one twin socket outlet, or one stationary appliance, shall be fed from each non-fused spur.

 

[John D v2.0]

A40: ..........Not more than two socket outlets, or one twin socket outlet, or one stationary appliance, shall be fed from each non-fused spur.

Yes, that's one point per spur, but not one spur per point.
I.e. if you do a garage conversion and want 3 double sockets, you could take 3 cables from a jb on the ring nearby and connect one to each socket.

 

[securespark]

The OSG is irrelevant.

I hear what you're saying. There is stuff in the OSG that is not backed up in the margins by a regulation number.

But does that mean you can ignore the advice?

Surely if that were the case, the OSG would not include that information?