Plumber/Heating enginers perspective required

[gas4you]

The make and model of the boiler is irrelevant, the OP question did not actually ask anyone to diagnose the problem.
To answer your question, if the Installer supplied the boiler and installed it, then if there is a problem with it, he should first attend site to see if he can rectify the problem, it could be something simple, or something he had done wrong, it appears by your posts that he has attended and could not find a fault with his work, as he supplied the boiler, HE should arrange with the manufacturer to send one of their engineers to rectify the problem, if you had supplied the boiler, then I would leave the arranging of the manufacturer to you, after I had checked my own work.

I would certainaly not change the boiler, the manufacturer needs to have the chance to fix it, if it was unrepairable, I would expect the manufacture to pay me to change it.

No its not Silverback, there is a hidden untoward reason that the wind up poster is not revealing the make and model. The same as you visitng the ARGI site but slagging ARGI off at every chance you get

 

[Softus]

The rights of the customer under law are against the supplier rather than the manufacturer and a manufacturer's guarantee does not take those rights away.

You've written nothing there that conflicts with what I've written, although clearly you think you have.

I cannot help but think that you have taken this a little too personally for some reason.

Not at all - you haven't written anything personal. You don't even know me, so how could you?

Anyway thank you all for your time and input. Especially you Softus, you obviously don't get out much!

Having just got in and read your comment, I find it unassailably ironic that I was out while you were posting your jibe.

 

[gatecrasher3]

Someone mentioned that you don't have a contract with the manufacturer. This is untrue. The warranty is a contract, it being offered "at large", and accepted by you when purchasing the boiler, even from an installer.

You have no contractual right to expect, or require, the installer to solve

The rights of the customer under law are against the supplier rather than the manufacturer and a manufacturer's guarantee does not take those rights away.

You've written nothing there that conflicts with what I've written, although clearly you think you have.

Which bit of "The rights of the customer under law are against the supplier rather than the manufacturer" don't you understand?

Must dash, time for a few beers whilst watching the Patriots carry on their record breaking season on the way to receiving the Vince Lombardi Trophy.

Night all

 

[Softus]

Which bit of "The rights of the customer under law are against the supplier rather than the manufacturer" don't you understand?[/b]

I hope you don't mind if I quote the first edition of your most recent post, since it reveals that you're a hot-head who doesn't proof read his own posts, much less read anyone else's properly.

I guess I'll just have to repeat myself:

The rights of the customer under law are against the supplier rather than the manufacturer and a manufacturer's guarantee does not take those rights away.

You've written nothing there that conflicts with what I've written, although clearly you think you have.

Since you seem a bit hard of thinking, I'll explain. It's very simple, but try to keep up.

The purchaser of a boiler from an installer has a contract with that installer. The exact terms of that contract are dependent on the agreement between those parties.

If the manufacturer offers a warranty, then the purchaser also has a contract with the manufacturer.

The purchaser, if not a business, also has statutory rights under specific consumer legislation, in addition to general rights under Contract Law.

Now then, I expect you're going to insist that the consumer has no contract with the manufacturer. If you think this is the case, then please explain how any consumer has any rights under the terms of any manufacturer's warranty.

To illustrate your point, please name any consumer, any product, and any manufacturer you wish, and also the specific legislation that provides the non-contractual rights that you believe permits a consumer to claim against a manufacturer (e.g. The Ritual Humiliation Act 1971).

 

[billy bob]

The make and model of the boiler is irrelevant, the OP question did not actually ask anyone to diagnose the problem.
To answer your question, if the Installer supplied the boiler and installed it, then if there is a problem with it, he should first attend site to see if he can rectify the problem, it could be something simple, or something he had done wrong, it appears by your posts that he has attended and could not find a fault with his work, as he supplied the boiler, HE should arrange with the manufacturer to send one of their engineers to rectify the problem, if you had supplied the boiler, then I would leave the arranging of the manufacturer to you, after I had checked my own work.

I would certainaly not change the boiler, the manufacturer needs to have the chance to fix it, if it was unrepairable, I would expect the manufacture to pay me to change it.

No its not Silverback, there is a hidden untoward reason that the wind up poster is not revealing the make and model. The same as you visitng the ARGI site but slagging ARGI off at every chance you get

Your just paranoid, what can the OP possibaly gain from this.

As for argi, I visit lots of chat forums, does not mean I like them all, but why bring this up within this topic, it seems to me you are just trying to stir things, if you have a problem with me contact me directly, it is unfair that you drag other peoples posts down
My username is billy bob can you not read

 

[tonybhoy]

When I was a bit younger than I am now there is no way I would have changed a boiler after four days now however if the customer was 'difficult' I would simply bite the bullet,providing of course the boiler was gubbed.

Last summer I fitted a Saber 35 HE-fit them all the time BTW and never ever had a problem on install-but this time the boiler wouldn't fire so I phoned up Vokera and honest to God the girl on the phone was right out of the seventies .

You know the sort,

'no you can't have an engineer out today because you are waiting on payment from your customer who is going to think our boilers are total scrap cause it's not worked on day one but we'll have an engineer call next week,ok? and actually we don't give a sh!t.'

So I was about to take it off the wall and go get another boiler from my supplier when I noticed that the pump switch was stuck in the mid position between 3&2,so put in the right position and it worked but Vokera's customer service was ,frankly, appalling.

I remember the time when their customer service was probably the best in the business,I mean you could get an engineeer out within two hours now you can't get through to their tech line in that sort of time, but their boilers were pants.You were lucky if 50% of them worked out of the box,LOL.

I recall years ago (20 yr ago) working on a block of 12 new flats which were all fitted with Valiant combis and about seven of them simply wouldn't start on initial lightening.Their engineer was there for about eight hours changing all sorts of parts in them.

 

[Agile]

So I was about to take it off the wall and go get another boiler from my supplier when I noticed that the pump switch was stuck in the mid position between 3&2,so put in the right position and it worked but Vokera's customer service was ,frankly, appalling.

Whilst I appreciate that many installers seem to have absolutely no understanding of how boilers work, surely something as simple as a pump not working is so basic?

What I would ask you and other installers who cannot fix boilers, just how do you expect the manufacturer's engineers to fix boilers they are called to? Or are they on a higher plane than humble installers?

In relation to the original posting, as usually happens when we get absolutely no details at all it is often a customer who is out to wreak havock and wants to avoid paying for the installation. Having had this situation myself I am very surprised that installers manage to work with these customers at all!

Tony

 

[Softus]

What I would ask you and other installers who cannot fix boilers, just how do you expect the manufacturer's engineers to fix boilers they are called to? Or are they on a higher plane than humble installers?

No, you drunken buffoon, they are specialists in one brand of boiler.

 

[tonybhoy]

So I was about to take it off the wall and go get another boiler from my supplier when I noticed that the pump switch was stuck in the mid position between 3&2,so put in the right position and it worked but Vokera's customer service was ,frankly, appalling.

Whilst I appreciate that many installers seem to have absolutely no understanding of how boilers work, surely something as simple as a pump not working is so basic?

Look I can suss out boiler repairs but that is not my thing cause I don't want to if I did I would do boiler repairs but I don't I fit them and I expect them to work so when they don't I'll have a look but I ain't wasting my time when I have paid for warranty and service.

Frankly I'm not looking at having to repair or fault diagnose a brand boiler and why should I have to?

You can use the same analogy for a washing machine for example.

Should a kitchen fitter be expected to fault diagnose a faulty washing machine?

Some of these manufactures really need to get themselves sorted.

We,the installers are the customers our customers don't buy the boilers from them we do and the least we should expect is some decent customer service.

And it's not just Vokera who are murder,God the tech helpline is unreal, honestly.

I contacted the Worcester rep last with a view to getting preferred installer status .He told me he would phone me last Monday and I'm still waiting so they will be waiting on me buying their boilers in the future.

What I would ask you and other installers who cannot fix boilers, just how do you expect the manufacturer's engineers to fix boilers they are called to? Or are they on a higher plane than humble installers?

No they are not

In relation to the original posting, as usually happens when we get absolutely no details at all it is often a customer who is out to wreak havock and wants to avoid paying for the installation. Having had this situation myself I am very surprised that installers manage to work with these customers at all!

Well I'm with the customer on this issue and I've had my share of difficulties in the regard too.

I mean any appliance only lasting four days does no one any favours does it? Regardless of what sort of customer you are dealing with.

Sometimes you are owed thousands for work that you have done and the bleeding most important thing doesn't even work from day one which is not acceptable in the sense that it hardly instills confidence does it?

I know I would be a tad unhappy if I had paid over a grand for a TV that didn't work when I switched it on.

Cheers.

Tony.

Tony

 

[Agile]

No, you drunken buffoon, they are specialists in one brand of boiler.

What about those like Paul Barker and Mehran who represent several different manufacturers then?

Tony

 

[Agile]

Look I can suss out boiler repairs but that is not my thing cause I don't want to if I did I would do boiler repairs but I don't I fit them and I expect them to work so when they don't I'll have a look but I ain't wasting my time when I have paid for warranty and service.

Frankly I'm not looking at having to repair or fault diagnose a brand boiler and why should I have to?

Cheers.

Tony

[/quote]

Yes, but those who repair boilers for the manufacturers find, as Mehran has pointed out, that the majority of faults are because of installation errors, a lack of cleansing being the most common!

Some installers have such a poor understanding of power flushing that they dont even know how to do that after they have bought the pump!

Tony

 

[Softus]

What about those like Paul Barker and Mehran who represent several different manufacturers then?

I know nothing about Mehran, but Paul is an extensively trained and multi-skilled dual-trade installer and repairer.

Tradespeople like Paul are very few and far between, so citing him as an example does nothing to justify your pathetic, pointless, and somewhat tardy sarcasm.

Best open another bottle.

 

[tonybhoy]

No, you drunken buffoon, they are specialists in one brand of boiler.

What about those like Paul Barker and Mehran who represent several different manufacturers then?

Tony

Do you know how many boilers are in circulation,pardon the pun,the UK?

Over 1100.

Worcester alone must have near 100 so most guys either stick to one manufacturer or maybe three or four and they get familiar with those manufacturer's boilers and are successful making a living repairing.

Sure most of those guys can look at other boilers and have a stab at repairing them but in the main most guys stick to what they know,much like installers in fact who stick to the boilers they like installing for various reasons.

I have personally been installing Vokera boilers for nearly 20 years but I do fit some other makes from time to time.

 

[Softus]

Some installers have such a poor understanding of power flushing that they dont even know how to do that after they have bought the pump!

Power flushing to me is primarily a show for the customer. There are few situations I see it doing any better that the correct treatment left for the appropriate time using the system boiler and pump or in extreme cases mains water pressure flushing.

 

[tonybhoy]

Look I can suss out boiler repairs but that is not my thing cause I don't want to if I did I would do boiler repairs but I don't I fit them and I expect them to work so when they don't I'll have a look but I ain't wasting my time when I have paid for warranty and service.

Frankly I'm not looking at having to repair or fault diagnose a brand boiler and why should I have to?

Cheers.

Tony

Yes, but those who repair boilers for the manufacturers find, as Mehran has pointed out, that the majority of faults are because of installation errors, a lack of cleansing being the most common!

Some installers have such a poor understanding of power flushing that they dont even know how to do that after they have bought the pump!

Tony[/quote]

Yes I know the majority of faults are installation errors but the OPs original point is valid in the sense that the boiler is suspected as being the culprit and unfortunately some boilers still don't work out of the box.

The last thing I need or want is for a customer to think I'm selling him rubbish which is exactly what he will think if the boiler conks out after four days and who can blame him?

On a typical install the boiler represents about 40% of the total cost so if the boiler fails initially then 60% of the dosh or cost of the work is at risk and that to me is not acceptable.