Plumber/Heating enginers perspective required

[gatecrasher3]

Hi

Would you expect ( or get) a new car if it had a problem?
I bet your installer is thrilled with you .Are you holding back payment??

Thanet.

I am simply asking for opinions.

Completely ridiculous similarity to make but as you have, do you think that nobody has ever had a car replaced due to it being faulty when supplied?

No need for you to make assumptions but just to put your mind at ease I haven't received an invoice yet so no I am not holding back payment.

The question I would ask you though is, would you pay for something that isn't working correctly or would you wait until everything is rectified to your satisfaction?

No need to get all defensive and anti-consumer lol

 

[gatecrasher3]

If it is a boiler fault and not operator error, then the Customer has a contract with the Installer and it is the Installer's responsibility to rectify it.

The installer has returned and to the best of his knowledge can find no fault with his work or the operational settings of the boiler.

It may be a warranty problem, then the Installer has a contract with the boiler supplier, but it is still the Installer's problem to sort out.

My thoughts exactly, however he has left it as our responsability to contact the manufacturer and arrange for one of their engineers to come out.

Typically, the Installer may tell the Customer it is faulty boiler whilst the Manufacturers is telling the Installer that it is a faulty installation and not covered by the warranty. From the point of view of the Customer, that is something for the Installer to sort out. The Customer's one and only contract is with the Installer; the contract is usually for a working boiler in exchange for money.

As the manufacturer hasn't yet been out I don't know if there will be a blame game (hopefully not)!

You can't be certain that the boiler needs replacement until a competent technician has examined it.

Very true, however I am sure you can see why I would be nervous about the long term reliability of the boiler if it has potentially failed 4 days after installation.

Combi boiler? Existing system? Power-flushed? Do tell.
Any get-out clauses( e.g. 'recommend power flushing for £XXX prior to installation', which was declined)?

Existing boiler has been replaced with a condensing combi boiler along with the correctly sized 22mm gas pipework. CH has been flushed and inhibitors added all part of the agreed quote.

The problem we have is with the HW in that it cycles between lukewarm and cold gradually remaining cold. The boiler fires up but rather than the burner cutting out it's as if it fades out (if that makes sense).

 

[Nige F]

let the manufacturers swop it after all they are the ones making the most money out of them

Yup, they make more than £600 per boiler clear profit

 

[numpty1]

your just jealous nige because you could not jump on the gas bandwagon as a coffin dodger the strain too much on the ticker mate

 

[Softus]

I'm not "expecting" a replacement unit but wanted to hear opinions from you guys as to what was the norm in that kind of situation.

"...opinions....norm....kind of situation"?

WTF language are you using? Why the mystery?

Either you have a boiler problem, or you don't. Either you understand how to fault-find, or you don't. And if you don't, how can you even be thinking of categorising the problem or the situation?

That said though, a failure occurring so quickly after installation does not provide confidence in the longevity of the unit.

The only thing that anyone should lose confidence in is your ability to think rationally.

If you bought a car that failed to start on the fourth morning, would you:

a) call the company that sold you the car?
b) call the breakdown service that came with the car?
c) get straight onto an Internet forum and talk in vague woffley terms about a "kind of situation";

Playing devils advocate for a minute, I'm guessing from your last line and other peoples posts that nobody would entertain swapping the boiler. Can you tell me why that would be, other than the obvious extra work for the installer?

Again, if your new car had a fault, would you expect it to be replaced?

A boiler, like a car, is an assembly of discrete components, each of which has its own function, and each of which is capable of failing. The boiler also relies on a number of external components (e.g. the programmer) for the correct and fault-free operation of the system. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to consider carrying out a vast amount of work when the fault hasn't yet been analysed.

You haven't said what the symptoms are, you don't know what the fault is, and you don't know what it will take to fix it.

Clearly there are things you're not telling us, so, FFS, just call the manufacturer and get them to sort it out. If they say that you have to call the installer, then you have to call the installer.

 

[snes]

Don't beat around the bush, Softus.

Just say what's on your mind.

 

[doitall]

Don't beat around the bush, Softus.

Just say what's on your mind.

now it is getting silly.

"What Mind"

 

[Softus]

The question I would ask you though is, would you pay for something that isn't working correctly or would you wait until everything is rectified to your satisfaction?

If you receive an invoice and it's clear that the work has been done, and claimed materials have been used, and the charge is reasonable, then you are legally obliged to pay the invoiced amount.

If you haven't received an invoice, then the question of payment doesn't yet arise.

Someone mentioned that you don't have a contract with the manufacturer. This is untrue. The warranty is a contract, it being offered "at large", and accepted by you when purchasing the boiler, even from an installer.

Don't confuse good business practice with contractual responsibility.

How much the installer gets involved with a fault that was not present when the work was completed, is the installer's choice.

If he's only an installer and not skilled in fault-finding, then there's little point in him attempting it, but most tradespeople will sacrifice some unpaid time in ensuring that the customer is happy because it's a courteous, and because courtesy leads to recommendations for more work.

You have no contractual right to expect, or require, the installer to solve the problem. However, if he doesn't liaise with the manufacturer on your behalf, then he has no right to expect anything from you other than a dim view of his attitude.

 

[billy bob]

If you had installed a new boiler and associated upgraded gas pipe, etc and then after 4 days the boiler had a fault what would you do?

Would you replace the boiler for the customer or would you tell the customer that they need to contact the boiler manufacturer and arrange for one of their engineers to attend and repair it under warranty?

Who supplied the boiler, the installer or you

 

[Softus]

now it is getting silly.

"What Mind"

Shall I tuck that blanket around your legs?

I'M NOT YOUR SON!!

 

[Onetap]

Someone mentioned that you don't have a contract with the manufacturer. This is untrue. The warranty is a contract, it being offered "at large", and accepted by you when purchasing the boiler, even from an installer.

Not so, Softus. A contract is an offer, acceptance of the offer and a consideration (£XXX.XXs), ISTR from a course 20 years ago.

No payment wasmade to the boiler manufacturers, so no formal contract. The contract chain is Customer & Installer; Installer & Merchant; Merchant and Manufacturers (middlemen excluded).

I think they could still get sued if they're flogging dodgy boilers, but that would be tort and I don't care. Agree or disagree, don't take disagreement as a personal insult.

I think in this case the Customer could call out the Manufacturer's Technician to attend free-of-charge. The danger is that, if they do decide it's a non-warranty failure, they will probably want paying; since the Customer has called them, he's in the frame for the costs.

I still say the Installer should call them, assuming he supplied and installed. Any thing we've not been told?

 

[corgiman]

I agree with you Onetap. But does it not make logistical sense for the end user to call the manufacturer to make an appointment for them to attend

after all they are the ones who live in the house and would have to let them in?

 

[Softus]

Not so, Softus. A contract is an offer, acceptance of the offer and a consideration (£XXX.XXs)...

Quite so. There is consideration here, because the consumer will be paying the installer.

No payment wasmade to the boiler manufacturers, so no formal contract. The contract chain is Customer & Installer; Installer & Merchant; Merchant and Manufacturers (middlemen excluded).

If you're confused about the concept of the payment not being made directly to the manufacturer, then perhaps you've forgotten this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/133524.stm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19980715/ai_n14178511

Agree or disagree, don't take disagreement as a personal insult.

No problaymo. I haven't and I won't.

Any thing we've not been told?

Oh I think there's a lot.

 

[Agile]

I always expect an installer to attend first if a boiler he fitted stopps working.

This is to check that the used has not done anything stupid or teh pressure gond down and that its a genuine manufacturers fault.

Most manufacturers charge about £90 for visits arising from user or installer error.

Unfortunately many installers har quite lacking in simple skills. I have encountered several installers who cannot work out how to use the boiler's time clock even with the instructions.

Tony

 

[heatingman]

Gatecrasher asked for an opinion/perspective from the world of heating engineers, and has definitely got one.
We all appear to deal and approach our problems in different ways ranging from being sensible to passing the buck