Property & Wills

[Dork Lard]

Here's a good one to wrack your brains on.

Chap purchased a house in 1980 for £9k cash. Chap was working away during the week, his father (divorced) moved in rent free & the chap stayed there only at weekends. His father (divorced) met & married a lady who moved in sometime early 90's. Chap stopped working away late 90's but purchased a house for himself, his father & his stepmum continued living in the house rent free . . . .

In 2005 his father died leaving everything to his wife. Chap got along very well with his stepmum so things like family photo's, momento's etc were happily handed over. The subject of the house & the 'rent free' aspect were discussed & it was agreed that she could live there 'rent free' for as long as she liked . . . . .

She died in 2020 with no will. Her nearest living relative is her only son from her previous marriage who 'thinks' he's inherited this house & is now living there 'rent free' !

House is now worth approx £200k, correctly registered to this chap with the land registry. Her son keeps getting solicitors onboard to try & legally register the house in his name, chap has so far spent over £15k in his own solicitors fee's to fight him . . . . .

It's an ongoing saga & the stress is literally killing this chap. Do you think the son has any chance in transferring the property to his name & thus gaining the house foc???

 

[motorbiking]

Unlikely, but it depends on the how the life time occupancy was agreed.

Father never owned the property, so it was never subject to being part of his estate. However, the argument might be that the property was gifted to his mother rather than there being a life time tenancy. In which case a deed of trust would need to be evidenced.

He should prioritise on getting a court order for the occupier to be removed. He should also apply for costs (lost rent, fees etc). 4 weeks notice, job done. I suspect it's more complex. Has the occupier carried out renovations or improvements, can he show investment?

 

[Loofah]

The 'chap' has a sitting tenant by the sound of it. Serve notice for eviction. It's a very slow process unfortunately but until the tenant is gone he can't do anything. Even selling the house would be prevented as this situation would crop up in conveyancing.
The chap needs any evidence he has of his dad and step mum just residing in his house rent free especially anything that confirms his version of events, but I fail to see how the son could gets the property transferred.
Horrible situation.

 

[Mottie]

This not a rehash of the story about the house that ‘old bob' lived in and Dork 'forgot' that he he had bought the house years ago until he checked his records and had let Bob live there rent free is it?

 

[Dork Lard]

This isn't a landlord/tenant dispute, it is an ownership dispute & a very complex one.

I can't see an easy route out of it & I suspect his solicitor is milking the fee's by not taking any positive action . . . . .

I've given him my accountants details, who 'knows' about this stuff & will be able to put him in touch with the right property expert.

 

[Dork Lard]

This not a rehash of the story about the house that ‘old bob' lived in and Dork 'forgot' that he he had bought the house years ago until he checked his records and had let Bob live there rent free is it?

Nope. Bob is resting peacfully & my No'1 son is currently refurbing to sell it on.

BTW, I never 'forgot' I owned it, just got my man to check everything was legally tight.

P.S. I'm told his daughter had already 'upgraded' her car . . . . I do hope she wasn't too financially embarrassed

 

[johnny2007]

This shouldn't be as complex as people say.
From the land registry records they can see who owns the house.
The landlord should've started eviction immediately after the stepmother death.
He needs to start eviction proceedings now.
The current tenant has no title to the house, similarly to his mum and the chap father.
£15k in solicitor's fees seems just a rip off.
What have they done so far apart from sending letters?
I used to manage properties for landlords in my heydays and seen something similar happening with stepchildren trying to grab a slice of inheritance.
Unfortunately for them, the house belongs to whomever holds title to it.
So nothing complicated.

 

[Deleted member 18243]

If it's registered in chap's name then surely it is chap's house, and if sonny is trying to (re) register it in his own name it is fraud, and a solicitor helping him do this would also be guilty.

Has chap got the title deeds?

Also, if chap bought the house in 1980, 43 years ago, it will have had repairs, maintenance and possibly improvements carried out, and if so, who paid for these? If anyone other than chap did it might complicate matters. Also, if sonny is in some sort of desperate situation pleading poverty and possible homelessness that will complicate things.

Also,

momento's

is spelt mementoes, a bit like tomatoes.

 

[motorbiking]

This isn't a tenant situation where a notice to quit is served, it's an occupier and possibly an "excluded occupier" with no rights. However, he is no doubt claiming that the property has been enhanced by his endeavour or his mums endeavour (which he has arguably inherited). Solicitors do like to write a letter and the fees can quickly escalate. He needs to get a court order to evict and then face down the legal claims for damages.

The old saying "possession is 9/10ths of the law" has some merit. The longer the person is allowed to remain the stronger the basis to establish a claim for Active Economic Growth, contributing to the property value. Of course it's a weak claim as no contract exists, but the longer it is "allowed" to go on the more reasonable the AEG argument.

Step mum has 15 years in the house.
Son is rapidly getting to 3 years in the house

He has a chance to claim some damages for his AEG and any enhancements. He is unlikely to have any basis to treat the property as part of his estate and get the LR to assign title.

I would value his claim at between £20-45k. which is high court territory, so let him bring the claim after he is evicted and offer settlement of say half. A savvy lawyer would then argue a counter claim for unpaid rent.

 

[johnny2007]

Doesn't matter who maintained the property.
They were there rent free and the verbal agreement could've been such that the user were maintaining the property in exchange for living there for free.
This guy claiming the house now, has no title to it whatsoever.
I think the solicitors are playing their usual game of "it's complicated" to cash in as much as possible.
I see it as a very simple case.
Someone is occupying someone else's property without any contract.
2 scenarios here:
1. The landlord has not lived in the property for a length of time and has no personal belongings there.
In this case the landlord should serve a letter asking to vacate the premises within 14 days, not serve a section 21 notice because this would mean that there's a contract in place.
He should make clear that the occupier has taken possession without landlord agreement and is required to leave peacefully.
After 14 days the landlord should start a court case to regain possession of the property.

2. The landlord has lived there up to recently, even just on weekends and has personal property in the house. Also he holds keys to access the property.

In this case, unfortunately he has already contacted solicitors, otherwise he could've gone into the house, wait for the occupier to return and tell him to move out. If he declined, the landlord would've been able to request police assistance to help the occupier move out.
Then the occupier would've been in the situation to start legal proceedings which would've gone nowhere.
As said, unfortunately this ship has sailed now.

 

[Stivino]

If it's registered in chap's name then surely it is chap's house, and if sonny is trying to (re) register it in his own name it is fraud, and a solicitor helping him do this would also be guilty.

Has chap got the title deeds?

Also, if chap bought the house in 1980, 43 years ago, it will have had repairs, maintenance and possibly improvements carried out, and if so, who paid for these? If anyone other than chap did it might complicate matters. Also, if sonny is in some sort of desperate situation pleading poverty and possible homelessness that will complicate things.

Also,



is spelt mementoes, a bit like tomatoes.

Or even; mementos.

 

[blup]

The dad and son allowed the mum to stay there so no question of squatters rights she isn’t a squatter. Kick him out or get a court order if he don’t go voluntarily. There is more to this than meets the eye, £15k defending legal action suggests there must be a detailed claim but the OP doesn’t go into that, is this a pub story?

Blup

 

[johnny2007]

The dad and son allowed the mum to stay there so no question of squatters rights she isn’t a squatter. Kick him out or get a court order if he don’t go voluntarily. There is more to this than meets the eye, £15k defending legal action suggests there must be a detailed claim but the OP doesn’t go into that, is this a pub story?

Blup

Possibly.

 

[Mottie]

I know of several cases where people that owned a house, even a mortgaged house, had a partner move in and stay a few years before the relationship turned sour and the partner moved back out but had a valid claim on a percentage of the house. Both of them had to pay the ex-partner off to stay in their own home. One of mrs Motties friends has had a partner living with her for at least 10 years but to prevent anything similar happening should they split up or should she die, she was advised by a lawyer friend to get a rent book and charge him a token weekly rent so that should the worse occur, he would be just a rent paying tenant so he would have no claim on her house if she died (and it could go straight to her kids) and if he left or died, he or his kids would have no claim on any portion of the house. 'Rent free' in the OP on a verbal agreement means not a lot in law as they could claim that they have contributed to the upkeep, maintenance and general improvement of the property. I suspect that’s possibly what the legal claim could be about.

 

[johnny2007]

I know of several cases where people that owned a house, even a mortgaged house, had a partner move in and stay a few years before the relationship turned sour and the partner moved back out but had a valid claim on a percentage of the house. Both of them had to pay the ex-partner off to stay in their own home. One of mrs Motties friends has had a partner living with her for at least 10 years but to prevent anything similar happening should they split up or should she die, she was advised by a lawyer friend to get a rent book and charge him a token weekly rent so that should the worse occur, he would be just a rent paying tenant so he would have no claim on her house if she died (and it could go straight to her kids) and if he left or died, he or his kids would have no claim on any portion of the house. 'Rent free' in the OP on a verbal agreement means not a lot in law as they could claim that they have contributed to the upkeep, maintenance and general improvement of the property. I suspect that’s possibly what the legal claim could be about.

The difference is that the father was himself a guest, he didn't own the house.
So the stepmother had no claim whatsoever to something that didn't belong to her husband.