Stormzy scholarship

[motorbiking]

That isn't

whites have been offered places at Oxbridge as a preference over all others

Encouraging people from disadvantaged backgrounds is not the same as having a race based application requirement. There are many people good enough to go to elite Universities, but don't have the money.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

I think the research that showed job applications with foreign names were much less likely to get shortlisted is an indication we have some way to go to reach equality in this country.

Right on!
There is also a problem with BAME applications. If BAME potential applications perceive that their application may be unsuccessful, purely because of their ethnicity, (due to an imbalance in the current ethnicity representation) they are less likely to apply.

Positive action is tricky, potentially a good thing, but the argument that 'the best person for the job' might not be achieved could become a negative to the person that was chosen.

I think you misunderstand Positive Action.
A Candidate Requirement list is created, e.g. in the case of Unis, it is the academic achievement.
All candidates must have achieved this minimum requirement. Only then is Positive Action possibly applied.
E.g. two applicants for one position, one white, one BAME, both equally qualified. The position is awarded to the BAME applicant under Positive Action, only if Positive Action is a declared policy. Positive Action can only be an acceptable policy to address an imbalance, not just a whim
Positive Action is not restricted to ethnicity. Any of the protected characteristics can initiate Positive Action.

There is also the risk of resentment

True, especially when people misunderstand it, misrepresent it, and attempt to fuel disenchantment and opposition.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Funny how it's only become an issue since being offered to blacks only. No wonder those privileged whites are feeling disgruntled. How dare those black people!

That's hardly true, is it?
I think it has been an issue the other way round for quite some time.

I quite agree with noseall's response to this. I will repeat it, for clarity:
a) it has only just become an issue here in DIYnot GD forum since Stormzy's offer. Although I suspect it may have been discussed before, judging by RogueHanger's Postive Action thread.
b) A typically vague and confusing Elfi's comment. Which part of noseall's comment are you referring to?

.
As with all emancipation, the solution should not come with carte blanche to do the reverse - although it does seem to be the case.

What total nonsense!
There is absolutely no suggestion that "carte blanche to do the reverse" is being effected. Which means it is does not "seem to be the case."
To suggest it is, is utterly ridiculous. I do not think that I need to speculate or elucidate on what "carte blanche to do the reverse" could look like!

It could be looked at similarly to men and women.

It could and occasionally is. Gender is a protected characteristic. Positive Action can (and has been) used to redress an imbalance of gender representation.

Women want equality; fair enough - so no women only shortlists,

Acute problems call for serious action to redress them. If it was a permanent situation (I assume you are thinking of political parties) then it would become a different political party, representing women only. But if that is what they want, why should they not have it?
There have been unofficial "men only" political parties for decades. Although they claimed to represent women also.

then, and no women only clubs etc.

What like plumbers only? T'is a joke!
Oops, nearly included a vague and confusing comment there. I meant my comment was intended as a joke.

 

[motorbiking]

There is a bit more to it than that, s158 and 159 of the equality act 2010 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/158

There was a vexatious litigant trawling the big employers a while back with the CV name thing. I think most have wised up and trained their staff appropriately. As someone who hires people from time to time, you do have to work hard to manage your unconscious bias, we all have it.

 

[Notch7]

I thin you misunderstand Positive Action

I havent misunderstood.

I wasnt commenting on the criteria, but on the perception of people in general. If a black person wins a place at Cambridge, other students may consider that person has gained the place, not by merit, but by positive action. That could impact negatively on the person, if they are viewed by others in that context.

 

[Bodd]

Right on!
There is also a problem with BAME applications. If BAME potential applications perceive that their application may be unsuccessful, purely because of their ethnicity, (due to an imbalance in the current ethnicity representation) they are less likely to apply.

When looking for a lad to work with me I had these to young-ish lads from Bow ask me to take them on. A bit rough around the edge they were not bad lads but they spoke with a Jafaican accent (my pet hate)
For that reason I said no. And I told them why as well.
I then took on a young German lad. Now their colour or ethnicity never come into my mind.
It was more down to the German lads ability to communicate and present himself over the two Bow lads.

Surley any business or organisation in the UK today will pick who they see is best to represent them and their ability regardless.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Oh - and no women only sport.

Think about it. It is not a comparable discussion. There are physical differences between men and women, (I am full of wisdom! )
There are no physical differences between ethnicities other than colour.

No women only sport means men are free to compete against women.
Coming this winter: the 18 nations rugby internationals
Men only, women only and mixed teams!
Or shall we go with Elfi's suggestion and just have mixed teams only?

Or are you thinking along the lines of mens' netball?
Or womens' basketball?

Or should we have disabled only sports?

Or should able-bodied be allowed to compete at the Para-Olympics?

Or do you want a wider discussion about sexism in sport?

Is sport sexist?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/29242699
Go for it, but do not attempt to equate or compare it with racism in sport.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Let's try another example.

The country and the world is trying to abolish discrimination on the grounds of race/colour.

Would anyone think it appropriate for a black person to open a guest house or hotel and put a sign in the window stating "NO WHITES"?

This comment is hardly worthy of a response.
A "No Whites" sign would be precisely the opposite of "The country and the world is trying to abolish discrimination on the grounds of race/colour."
A "No Whites" sign is as racially discriminatory as a "No Blacks" sign.
The issue under discussion is not excluding whites from Cambridge.
It is encouraging and financially helping BAME students.
I think you have lost the plot.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

So, you think the solution to discrimination is just to reverse it.

What total nonsense!
Worthy of others' misrepresentation!

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Brexit sets in

You are proved right.
We have no medicine and food is in low supply.

The upper class in their big houses and their family's are still well fed and looked after with their private health care..

There is only scrapes left to feed the rest of the nation

From what you are saying because the upper class are white and privileged.
The Black's get the first picking of the scrapes. The white under privileged get the Scapes of the scrape..

Just because the ones taking the P!ss are white..

What a wonderful world.you want to live in..

You have been misled by Elfi's interpretation and misrepresentation of his idea of Positive Action.
You have built your scenario on his mistaken interpretation.
It is not the direct reverse of existing discrimination.

 

[motorbiking]

Positive Action burns itself out once the criteria for it can no longer be passed. In simple terms it becomes unlawful once it has started to work.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Encouraging people from disadvantaged backgrounds is not the same as having a race based application requirement. There are many people good enough to go to elite Universities, but don't have the money.

Who has a "race based application requirement"? Stormzy?
He is funding students, not employing them, or by some other chicanery getting them into uni. They have already earned their place in their own right. He is merely helping them financially. Just like you might choose to help your kids, financially.
He is selecting his sponsees by a financial and race based requirement. But the finanicial requirement, and the offered place must be met first. Only then is the race requirement considered, in a Positive Action policy, addressing an imbalance of representation.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

I havent misunderstood.

I wasnt commenting on the criteria, but on the perception of people in general. If a black person wins a place at Cambridge, other students may consider that person has gained the place, not by merit, but by positive action. That could impact negatively on the person, if they are viewed by others in that context.

Then they are misunderstanding Positive Action, possibly by reading comments misrepresenting it.
The primary objective is to address an imbalance of represented people, not by providing under-qualified people. But by selecting people who meet the requirement and also meet the requirement for addressing the under-representation.

I repeat Stormzy's offer is to financially assist students who have already achieved their right to a uni place, on their own merit!
He is not offering some chicanery to get students into uni by some underhand method.

From motorbiking's link:

Positive action: recruitment and promotion
4)But subsection (2) applies only if—

(a)A is as qualified as B to be recruited or promoted,

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Positive Action burns itself out once the criteria for it can no longer be passed. In simple terms it becomes unlawful once it has started to work.

Fair comment.
Except, I would change "once it has started to work" to "when its objectives have been achieved".
Roll on when the objectives have been achieved.
In the meantime it is totally lawful, moral, and justified.

I do not think the objectives will ever be achieved. There will always be an imbalance of some protected characteristic or other.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

, s158 and 159 of the equality act 2010 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/158

Thanks for that.