When police cars speed...

[vsynth]

To add a bit more information this happened 'out in the sticks' where there were no houses so using the lights/siren would not have affected members of the public.

It didn't seem that he was hell bent on getting somewhere fast since when we got to the 50mph limit he slowed to 60...the speed camera is several hundred yards after the 50mph speed limit signs so he could have gone much faster before slowing down for the camera...maybe they were checking out my car registration details

 

[Bilioustrumpstaine]

A marked police vehicle went past me on a dual carrigeway earlier this week at a speed well over the limit, no lights or sirens on. This is not the first time I have seen this situation.

 

[megawatt]

Toptec wrote:

Mega, that is a load of borrocks. Until last year I was a Police driver and I, and my colleagues, regularly broke the speed limit for sh*t loads of reasons, most of which never go through a control room. Thermo is quite correct.

Then it's good job you've left the force IMO ... Perhaps you could explain some of these s**t loads of reasons where you don't feel the need to inform CAD.

If you happen to go through a speed camera, it will take about 4 hours of paperwork to sort out, so a lot of us used to slow down for them even though the particular job may require a breaking of the limit.

No issue with the police breaking speed limits but, once again, please enlighten us why the need is there to do so without informing the control room.

Surveillance teams around the country have to break the limit, almost continuously, to maintain observations. No lights and tones being used then!

Ditto

Thermo wrote:

Megawatt, you are wrong and there are many reasons when it is not possible/necessary or expediant for a driver to inform the control room what he is doing. Police drivers are trained to a high standard. Its their decision and they have to justify their actions.

And my previous post still stands ... If you think you'd get away with killing someone when you were travelling at 70mph in a 30mph limit with no visual or audible warnings and without the control room having logged your intent you are a deluded man and its a damn good job you're out of the force IMO.

MW

 

[toptec]

Mega

You seem obsessed with "CAD". That only exists in London, everywhere else it is the Control Room. The only time one would inform the Control Room of excess speed is in the case of a pursuit, for obvious reasons.

You wanted examples of not so doing, here are a few;

A cop is in a town centre and ahead sees a motorcycle emerge from a junction, rip through red lights and over a zebra xing whilst it is being used. Blues and twos go on, Cop makes ground, exceeding the limit and pulls said offender. Control room not infd until relevant checks are radioed through. No mention of speed.

Cop on a dual carriageway, spots a vehicle subject of intelligence reports regarding distraction burglaries. Cop accelerates to 100 mph, no lights on as he doesn't want to spook the vehicle, catches up with possible villain, lights on, pulls him and arrests follow. Control room then informed re arrests.

Cop parked up in a transit, with three colleagues late at night, in the town centre. Motorist pulls alongside reports a fight at a nightclub nearby. Lights and tones on, van exceeds the limit getting to the club. En-route tells control room they are attending a fight. No mention of excess speed is made.

A surveillance team from Devon and Cornwall lose sight of the target vehicle at a busy roundabout in Birmingham. The first unmarked car takes the first exit, the second takes the second and so on. All the vehicles break the limit until they locate the target vehicle. No contact with any Control Room.

All these examples involve an immediate assessment by the driver of the risks involved. If he chooses to continue with the action he has to justify it if it goes pearshaped.

As for me, retired after thirty years, no prangs, no tickets. Standard and Enhanced driver training. Only damage was a knocked off blue light trying to park the Police van in a cycle shed!!!

 

[megawatt]

You seem obsessed with "CAD". That only exists in London, everywhere else it is the Control Room.

Happy to be corrected on the semantics ... Everywhere I've said CAD replace with Control Room.

The only time one would inform the Control Room of excess speed is in the case of a pursuit, for obvious reasons.

I would disagree with the obvious but will read on ...

You wanted examples of not so doing, here are a few;

Thank you

A cop is in a town centre and ahead sees a motorcycle emerge from a junction, rip through red lights and over a zebra xing whilst it is being used. Blues and twos go on, Cop makes ground, exceeding the limit and pulls said offender. Control room not infd until relevant checks are radioed through. No mention of speed.

Not an issue as blues and two's were used ... Please read earlier posts.

Cop on a dual carriageway, spots a vehicle subject of intelligence reports regarding distraction burglaries. Cop accelerates to 100 mph, no lights on as he doesn't want to spook the vehicle, catches up with possible villain, lights on, pulls him and arrests follow. Control room then informed re arrests.

No problem with need to chase without blues and two's but there's absolutely no reason why the control room isn't informed at the outset ... Other than sheer lazyness.

Cop parked up in a transit, with three colleagues late at night, in the town centre. Motorist pulls alongside reports a fight at a nightclub nearby. Lights and tones on, van exceeds the limit getting to the club. En-route tells control room they are attending a fight. No mention of excess speed is made.

Not an issue as blues and two's were used ... Please read earlier posts.

A surveillance team from Devon and Cornwall lose sight of the target vehicle at a busy roundabout in Birmingham. The first unmarked car takes the first exit, the second takes the second and so on. All the vehicles break the limit until they locate the target vehicle. No contact with any Control Room.

Absolutely no reason why the control room isn't informed at the outset ... Other than sheer lazyness.

All these examples involve an immediate assessment by the driver of the risks involved. If he chooses to continue with the action he has to justify it if it goes pearshaped.

As a member of the public with a number of close friends in fairly senior positions in both the MET and D&C Constabulary and a strong supporter of the old dibble as a result, nothing you have said above mitigates in any way the need for the officers on the ground to inform the control room when they are about to engage in a covert pursuit where blues and two's cannot be used and there is a likelyhood that excessive speeds will be used.

And, so, I'll say again ... Do you really believe that you'd get away with killing someone when you were travelling at 70mph in a 30mph limit with no visual or audible warnings and without the control room having logged your intent?

In every scenario you've outlined above the defence barrister would ask why you didn't inform your superiors and you be castigated for not doing so ... Because there's no reasonable defence (lazyness isn't a reasonable defence).

MW

 

[Thermo]

megawatt, dont want to fall out with you on this one, but why do you think a control room needs to be informed? why have you got a bee in your bonnet about it? If you can point me to any force policy that states that it must be done then all well and good, but i think youll be hard pressed to find one. If you think that they should inform Cad or control room, then thats the bible according to you and not written from any informed position. It also shows a clear lack of total understanding of the situations that arise during police work. Why do you think they must be informed anyway?

where did i ever say that you would get away with killing someone driving at 70mph in a 30mph area? I think you may well be the deluded one. I drove for 12 years in the police as a response driver and on a stolen vehicles unit. I NEVER once had an accident, but thanks for the personal insults.

Vysnth, may well have had a good reason, may well have simply been speeding. If the latter is the case then he takes what comes if he comes a cropper!

 

[tim west]

what happened to command and control and backhall then?

 

[megawatt]

Thermo, no intention of falling out with you either

I'd turn this on its head and say why don't you think the control room should be told and have the incident logged for the safeguard of all concerned? A radio call isn't the most difficult thing to mandate after all.

For me this is a principle of accountability and prevents officers from being labelled irresponsible or maverick and offers a degree of protection from having to stand alone in court and defend their actions and decisions with no tangible record of events.

I still can't see why officers would not inform the control room in these cases unless they have something to hide and I'm sure most of the general public would have the same opinion, particularly in the event of a fatal incident.

MW

 

[securespark]

So why not use the lights and sirens all the time that a police car is outside the station, to draw your attention to it?

You're being flippant again!!

PS Haas anybody read any of the forum content I posted a link to?

 

[Thermo]

Thermo, no intention of falling out with you either

I'd turn this on its head and say why don't you think the control room should be told and have the incident logged for the safeguard of all concerned? A radio call isn't the most difficult thing to mandate after all.

For me this is a principle of accountability and prevents officers from being labelled irresponsible or maverick and offers a degree of protection from having to stand alone in court and defend their actions and decisions with no tangible record of events.

I still can't see why officers would not inform the control room in these cases unless they have something to hide and I'm sure most of the general public would have the same opinion, particularly in the event of a fatal incident.

MW

the decisions a driver makes are his alone, and he has to justify them, wether he has told his control room will not really make a great difference.
On many occasions it simply will not be practicable to inform control room of what he is doing let alone that he is not using any warning equipment.

An officer that is driving on his own my have to make best speed to deal with something that is happening in front of him. In those instances it is hard enough to concentrate on the driving and the incident, and to send a non essential piece of information would further complicate things and jeapordize his and others safety. Try driving and using the mobile phone at the same time, not easy is it? (except don't its illegal!) So he makes a judgement call with what is important. If needs be he justifys himself later on.

AN officer is assigned to an incident where there is a large amount of radio traffic already going on. To call up and give a trivial piece of information such as that will clog up the airwaves and could jeapordize other information being given at that time (i say trivial because when someone is giving a running commentary on an incident to other officers, someone coming across on the air with info such as that, or even assigning yourself to that incident, is extremely low down the priority list.)

Police officers that drive undergo a lot of training, and it is down to them to justify their actions. That is why they are given the training. If an officer is standing in the dock in court, they are always alone, and to be honest if it has got that far, then the rest of their actions may well be very questionable.

its not a question of something to hide its a question of reality. You are looking at it from the general publics point of view, not from the reality view of people trained to do a job, the difficulties, complexities, priorities and knowing what that entails day in day out in given situations.

Im definitely not deluded by the way

 

[toptec]

Mega

I really am trying to see this from your point of view.

Can I turn this issue of Control Rooms around and ask you - Why does the Control Room/CAD need to be told of each instance of a Police vehicle potential breach of road traffic law?

 

[megawatt]

I think both of you are missing where I'm coming from with this.

The point I'm making is that, in the event of the officer being involved in an incident where an innocent member of the public has been killed the fact that the pursuit was known about by the control room would certainly make things better for them than simply having some potentially made up story to cover the fact that they were speeding because they were late for refs or something similar (and you both know this does happen) with nothing logged in the CR.

Incidentally, I'm sat here having a beer with my best mate who's a DS from Plymouth and his perspective is that any pursuit should be known to the CR unless there's an operational reason why the officer cannot do so at the time.

Apologies for the deluded thing Thermo ... Daft thing to say

MW

 

[toptec]

Now you are into the definition of a pursuit, which is dealt with under ACPO guidelines and Force standing orders. Routine stops, checks, and attending incidents, involving excess speed, or traffic violations etc do not fall under this definition.

As I said earlier, pursuits do have to be reported to the control room for obvious reasons.

The fact of a radio message to the control room, in non-pursuit situations if even possible, does not give any additional protection to an officer if it results in any, god forbid, accidents caused by his decision to break road traffic law. Ask your Plymouth DS if he could ever envisage a Police Officer quoting this whilst in the box and the reaction of the court.

Also bear in mind that 95% of control room staff are civilians with as much knowledge of the law as a reasonably intelligent member of the public, and are not authorised to sanction pursuits or any other law breaking under any circumstances.

Regards to your Mate - I might know him!

 

[Thermo]

totally concur with toptec on this one. a pursuit is totally different to an officer responding to an incident, which is what has been talked about from the outset.

 

[heatingman]

Thought police cars were fitted with black box's similar to aeroplanes, voice/data/radio recorded. Or is that an urban myth.