Worcester Greenstar 15RI - boiler overrun query

[satinseat]

Getting desperate and need advice please!!!!!!!!

I've got a problem with the above boiler installed 2 years ago under warmfront scheme by Carillion (lots of problems with installation but working ok after a few weeks and corrective visits )- had 2 annual services since with no problems.

at the end of the 2 year guarantee got British Gas cover for future problems and their engineer came 12 days after guarantee 'ran out' to inspect system - he reported 'pump overrun not working' (he checked Worcesters installation guide online and stated this should have been connected at installation, but nowhere said it was connected or not (installation failure or breakdown?) - when the boiler stops there is the sound of water (running back the Br Gas man said) for a few seconds and it has always done this - even through the 2 years inspections.

I dont understand the workings of this boiler so have to ask for advice - how do i find out if the pump overrun was connected at installation (Carillion say Br Gas eng report did not say enough, only that it was not working - they want to know if 'never' working or 'broken'- unfortunately if it was 'broken' Carillion say it is now out of warranty (12 days from the 2 year warranty ending and Br Gas arriving to inspect.

I've asked Br Gas if this problem affects my cover for future problems and have been assured via email it won't but would like to know how to find out if the problem was with installation -

please can somebody advise me what's what - so i can understand the pump overrun - do i need to get another engineer in to check it out and how easy is it to find out what gone wrong.

hope someone out there has time to read this and what i've put down makes sense to someone as Carillion are not interested unless Br Gas report says why pump overrun is not working.

cheers
ian

 

[45yearsagasman]

The only requirement is that the system pump is connected directly to the boiler. This allows the built in overrun(on the pcb) to control the pump.
Overrun normally lasts for 3 mins. If your pump is not connected directly to the boiler it is the fault of the original installer.

 

[petit_pablo]

The only requirement is that the system pump is connected directly to the boiler. This allows the built in overrun(on the pcb) to control the pump.
Overrun normally lasts for 3 mins. If your pump is not connected directly to the boiler it is the fault of the original installer.

What he said!

Ironically i went to a 12ri today where the installer hadnt bothered to wire in the pump to the boiler. Noticed it when i flicked heatiing off and pump stopped immediately.
I would get BG to clarify, via another visit if required to confirm. The Ri heat engines do not like being excessively hot. I cant imagine the lack of pump overun is doing it any favours long term.

 

[satinseat]

thanks for all the info but that leaves me with the same query ( presumably Br Gas will charge for another visit) - what is involved in finding out if the installation was done properly. (and how long would it take an engineer on a visit - or put another way how much£)

fully understand the point about possible damage and if I can prove installation was wrong I can push for something to be done

thanks again

ian

 

[D_Hailsham]

You may be able to find out if the pump is connected to the boiler without calling BG or an engineer. You just need to follow simple instructions.

Can you see the pump? Something like this:

View media item 802
Does the lead go direct to the boiler or into a junction box?

If it goes direct to the boiler, it has been wired correctly. The overrun fault is in the boiler.

If the lead goes to a junction box, we need to find out what happens inside the box. So TURN THE POWER OFF and take the cover off the junction box.

If you have a camera, take a close up photo of the wiring inside the box (make sure you also show a little of the cables going into the box) and post it here. We will be able to work out how the pump has been connected.

 

[satinseat]

took a photo of the overall layout of electrics in the airing cupboard (boiler is downstairs in the kitchen) and a close up of the jumction box.

lots of wires going into this box - from pump, valves, timer, tank, etc -so many l got lost in my own airing cupboard.

airing cupboard layout

• satinseat
• 2 Aug 2012
• 1

layout - timer is out of shot above junction box

junction box

• satinseat
• 2 Aug 2012
• 1

pump is one of the many things going into this box

gosh someone is clever if this all makes sense!!!!!

thanks for your time

ian[/img]

 

[craig51]

ON the far right hand side, in the junction box, there are 2 orange and an brown. Is there another wire in there??

 

[satinseat]

going in to the top of the far right side are: brown and grey (thick) and 2 reds (thinner)

 

[D_Hailsham]

going in to the top of the far right side are: brown and grey (thick) and 2 reds (thinner)

Terminal 1 on the left; 10 on the right.

Do the two reds in 10 come from the black cables to the motorized valve?
Does the brown wire in 10 come from the white pump cable?

If so the pump has been wired incorrectly.

Is there anything in the terminal 9?

If so, is the wire part of the same cable as the grey one in terminal 10?

 

[satinseat]

got to get the wife to help here as difficult to bend - will post replies to questions soon as poss but can say terminal 9 is empty (that is nothing going into top but botton of all terminals is next to the case so can't see anything other that what's going in the top - is that ok?

back with other answers soon

thanks v much
ian

 

[craig51]

If you can (with power off) trace thre wire from pump. I bet as it enters the junction box, on of the wires will go into 10.

Thids means the pump will only be active if the motorised valve is 'active'. This is incorrect as power will be cut when valve closes, not when boiler is cool enough.

 

[satinseat]

sorry it took a while but i feel a degree in electrics comin on - we had a look and the answers are-

2 reds in ten come from each of the black motorised valve cables

brown in 10 does come from pump white cable

terminal 9 is empty


if this convinces you that it has been wired incorrectly (any written response from you would be good enough for me but bet Carillion will want more) i will pay for an engineer to come and report to them on the basis i will claim the cost of that report against Carillion - Do you agree also that this installation failure has caused damage over the 2 years since install?

concerned about the future cause repairs are expensive and maintenance contracts always worry me when it comes to claiming.

really appreciate your help - you would not believe the stress this has caused and how 'carillion' and the 'warmfront team' seem to be the same .

finally the bonus was the sight of the wife bending in the airing cupboard checking the wiring (when i remembered to switch it off)

thanks again and hope you can confirm installation wrong - from what you said last time even i think i can get it.
best regards
ian

 

[D_Hailsham]

2 reds in ten come from each of the black motorised valve cables

Correct

brown in 10 does come from pump white cable

Wrong

I would suspect that this has happened because the wrong cable has been installed between the junction box and the boiler.

terminal 9 is empty

That's useful. Provided the correct cable can be run to the boiler, the pump brown lead can be connected to 9 and to the boiler via one of the cores in the new cable.

I will pay for an engineer to come and report to them on the basis i will claim the cost of that report against Carillion

That's a good idea. Get the engineer to write his report (pics are also useful) and quote for correcting the error. Send the report and quote to Carillion. Ask them to pay for the work.

Do you agree also that this installation failure has caused damage over the 2 years since install?

Hard to say - possibly. You would need someone from the boiler manufacturer's to strip the boiler and produce a report.

'carillion' and the 'warmfront team' seem to be the same.

Not seem they are the same.

 

[Agile]

Oh dear!

Here goes jobs for the boys and litigation galore!

If the boiler is close to that box then it would take about 25 min to assess whats going on and correct it on the spot!

OR

20 min to inspect and 30 min to write a report!

So its likely to be cheaper to sort it all out on the spot.

 

[satinseat]

emailed Worcester for advice on possible damage and got the reply;

"It is certainly possible that two years without pump overrun or pump anti-sieze functions could place undue stress on the boiler's main heat exchanger, yes. The only way of knowing would be to get one of our engineers to inspect it. "

so looks like a check up by a local Gas Safe engineer and a report by him (sexist me) if proved to be wrong -

if a wrong install then i'm off to Carillion and will claim all costs incurred, giving their engineer a chance to inspect as well.

if Carillion eng agrees install was wrong they can pay for Worcester inspection of boiler and any corrective work needed but if their eng disagrees it's off to court - l aint got much but they aint having it -

thanks again to all the input here - al least i don't feel it's me alone against the corporate masters.

cheers
ian