Is immigration good or bad ?

[SirGalahad]

It's (very clearly) an opinion, not a statement as you claim.

But that wouldn't allow you to go off on your chosen crusade, so you misquote him / her.
Pretty standard M.O. around here

My statement won't account for job type but I'm confident in saying empty doctor and nurse position wouldn't remain so for long.

Where have I misquoted?

When I challenged him he came out with absolute tosh that you an find the data at ONS which I clearly proved he cannot. Was that a claim, opinion or statement?

As to the difference between a statement and opinion. But if it was an opinion and not a statement as you say then why did he then try to justify his opinion with a bogus response. He could have just said that's my opinion.

To quote

"A fact is a statement that can be proven true or false. An opinion is an expression of a person's feelings that cannot be proven."

If its the MO around here I am sure we all dabble.

 

[noseall]

Much the same thing.

Only if our government can't be arsed.

 

[transam]

The pun was intended. I do have an Ideal Logic boiler. It seems that as usual it went over your head. Perhaps next time I will have to put a disclaimer at the bottom.

over my head

yes a disclaimer would be the way to go

 

[wobs]

Is EU immigration bad for the UK? No:
http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit05.pdf

New evidence in this Report shows that the areas of the UK with large increases in EU immigration did not suffer greater falls in the jobs and pay of UK-born workers. The big falls in wages after 2008 are due to the global financial crisis and a weak economic recovery, not to immigration.
 There is also little effect of EU immigration on inequality through reducing the pay and jobs of less skilled UK workers. Changes in wages and joblessness for less educated UKborn workers show little correlation with changes in EU immigration.
 EU immigrants pay more in taxes than they take out in welfare and the use of public services. They therefore help reduce the budget deficit. Immigrants do not have a negative effect on local services such as crime, education, health, or social housing

 

[SammyInnit]

Is EU immigration bad for the UK? No:
http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit05.pdf

Okay so this accounts for jobs and joblessness.

What about added pressure on public services and quality of life for people in areas seeing high immigration?

While on paper this is all very credible it doesn't take away from the fact you're competing with more people than you could be for the same job, ethic aside.

I also see mentioned a lot is that migrants pay in more tax than they use in services. This is true for the majority of the country . So what? This is what is expected. How ever they always seem to ignore to mention that most migrant workers are in low skilled or the lowest paying positions, doing jobs 'brits don't want to do', so they're not contributing a massive amount. They always fail to mention too that if they don't pass the tax threshold (work 6 months here, 6 months on the continent) they pay no tax at all. And some people do play the system like this.


Another thing I'd like to mention and this isn't strictly regarding the EU but the way the fabric of society is changing over time; I'm not sure if what were once standard household given values and rules of respect have pretty much now been eroded? I can only help but think it's to do with an increase of people with different ideas whatever the reason being. I'll take my own guess.

Edit: bit of a tangent at the end there but not to worry. Lol.

 

[Notch7]

the fabric of society is changing over time; I'm not sure if what we're once standard household given values and rules of respect have pretty much now been eroded

There has been a huge shift in culture. I would attribute the shift to technology, globalisation and many others things. I dont see immigration has much to do with cultural change.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

What about added pressure on public services and quality of life for people in areas seeing high immigration?

... How ever they always seem to ignore to mention that most migrant workers are in low skilled or the lowest paying positions, doing jobs 'brits don't want to do', so they're not contributing a massive amount.

They are contributing financially, to the operation of the public services and the quality of life.
The migrants are younger, more mobile, often work in public services (where there is a shortage of indigenous workers to full the vacancies) and other low skilled jobs (where there is shortage of indigenous workers to full the vacancies) such as crop harvesting.

 

[wobs]

Okay so this accounts for jobs and joblessness.

What about added pressure on public services and quality of life for people in areas seeing high immigration?

This is addressed in the report:
"EU immigrants pay more in taxes than they take out in welfare and the use of public services. They therefore help reduce the budget deficit. Immigrants do not have a negative effect on local services such as crime, education, health, or social housing."

While on paper this is all very credible it doesn't take away from the fact you're competing with more people than you could be for the same job, ethic aside.

I get what you're saying, but they are coming to work, which means generating income, which boosts the economy, which creates growth. This creates jobs.

I also see mentioned a lot is that migrants pay in more tax than they use in services. This is true for the majority of the country . So what? This is what is expected. How ever they always seem to ignore to mention that most migrant workers are in low skilled or the lowest paying positions, doing jobs 'brits don't want to do', so they're not contributing a massive amount. They always fail to mention too that if they don't pass the tax threshold (work 6 months here, 6 months on the continent) they pay no tax at all. And some people do play the system like this.

Bolding mine. Not true, as most are better educated:
"EU immigrants are on average more educated than the UK-born (Table 1) – almost twice as many of them have some form of higher education (43% compared with 23% UK-born). Only 15% of EU immigrants left school at 16 compared with 44% of the UK-born."

Both quotes from the link in previous post.

Another thing I'd like to mention and this isn't strictly regarding the EU but the way the fabric of society is changing over time; I'm not sure if what were once standard household given values and rules of respect have pretty much now been eroded? I can only help but think it's to do with an increase of people with different ideas whatever the reason being. I'll take my own guess.

Edit: bit of a tangent at the end there but not to worry. Lol.

Its OK to be concerned about these things.
What we have to remember is that change happens all the time. Most of our culture is a product of us as a society accepting ideas from outside.
Although if anyone has made efforts to maintain our culture, its the EU, with its regional limits on certain products, to maintain local identity.

Also remember of course, that the UK Government chose to not impose EU immigration rules that could have further limited EU migrants. So if you are concerned about immigration, blame our Government.

 

[Notch7]

Also remember of course, that the UK Government chose to not impose EU immigration rules that could have further limited EU migrants. So if you are concerned about immigration, blame our Government.

partly correct.

 

[SammyInnit]

Not true, as most are better educated:
"EU immigrants are on average more educated than the UK-born (Table 1) – almost twice as many of them have some form of higher education (43% compared with 23% UK-born). Only 15% of EU immigrants left school at 16 compared with 44% of the UK-born."

That has no bearing on what jobs they're in though, in the same way there are undergraduates in the UK out of employment or in low skilled jobs.

As for what you mentioned about coming to work as I mentioned earlier in the thread, not all are in work so not all are contributing. This is presuming all, as I've mentioned are meeting the threshold to pay their 20% rate of tax.

 

[TicTac]

"EU immigrants pay more in taxes than they take out in welfare and the use of public services. "

Any article posted by the LSE, is always going to be inherently biased in favour of continuing immigration from the EU, but it obviously resonates with your beliefs, so no point discussing it further.

I get what you're saying, but they are coming to work, which means generating income, which boosts the economy, which creates growth. This creates jobs.

That's just a circular argument used to justify continued use of immigrant workers, but leaves the indigenous workers sitting at home, so this just grows the benefits bill

If the immigrant workers were to continue growing the economy, then by definition, you'd then need more of them, which would require more housing and services, then more health professionals to support the growth, then more houses and infrastucture- ad infinutum.

"EU immigrants are on average more educated than the UK-born (Table 1) – almost twice as many of them have some form of higher education (43% compared with 23% UK-born). Only 15% of EU immigrants left school at 16 compared with 44% of the UK-born."

This is often correct. Foreign children that have to learn a second language, will often end up better educated, but doesn't mean that they'll benefit greatly from that education until they go into the work force in the future years. Their parents are often in lower or manual jobs however.

What we have to remember is that change happens all the time. Most of our culture is a product of us as a society accepting ideas from outside.

Definitely, but change is being thrust on us too rapidly at the moment, and that will cause tensions - just look at the rise of the far right across the continent.

Although if anyone has made efforts to maintain our culture, its the EU, with its regional limits on certain products, to maintain local identity.

And just how is limiting certain products, protecting out culture. It's just protecting products, nothing more.

Also remember of course, that the UK Government chose to not impose EU immigration rules that could have further limited EU migrants. So if you are concerned about immigration, blame our Government.

Can't fault that comments one little bit.

 

[TicTac]

Forgot to add that the biggest concern than everyone seems to forget about immigration, is that our water system won't handle the increased numbers much longer. The south east from the Wash in Norfolk down to Southampton is the driest part of England, and London is reckoned to have water shortages within 10 years, whilst others think it may happen much sooner than that.

 

[JohnD]

Any article posted by the LSE

or to put it another way, tictac will ignore any evidence that doesn't match his own opinion.

 

[TicTac]

Ha ha, that's rich coming from you.

 

[SirGalahad]

Forgot to add that the biggest concern than everyone seems to forget about immigration, is that our water system won't handle the increased numbers much longer. The south east from the Wash in Norfolk down to Southampton is the driest part of England, and London is reckoned to have water shortages within 10 years, whilst others think it may happen much sooner than that.

So Private water companies are not planning for the future? If there is increased demand and bills are going up where is the money going?