• Looking for a smarter way to manage your heating this winter? We’ve been testing the new Aqara Radiator Thermostat W600 to see how quiet, accurate and easy it is to use around the home. Click here read our review.

EICR Faults

Joined
4 Mar 2004
Messages
164
Reaction score
1
Country
United Kingdom
Just had a EICR done and the electrician listed remedial works required to pass:

Plastic consumer unit
High Ze reading into consumer unit.


I thought plastic consumer units didn't need changing for the sake of it?

Also High Ze is a supply thing isn't it? Can the electrician do anything to rectify that?

Thanks in advance.
 
I thought plastic consumer units didn't need changing for the sake of it?
That is correct - although if it is a rental property, you will be expected to bring it up to current regulations.

Also High Ze is a supply thing isn't it? Can the electrician do anything to rectify that?
It is - measured at the incoming supply; not the CU.

Is the CU a distance from the incomer? What was the actual measurement?
 
Thanks for your speedy reply.

It is a rental, so in that case it needs to be changed to metal? (house is in England)

Regards Ze, no idea, the only statement I have is a quote to fix with 'High Ze reading into consumer unit' on it.

No report with C1,2,3 on like previously.
 
It is a rental, so in that case it needs to be changed to metal? (house is in England)
Virtually - Yes.

Regards Ze, no idea, the only statement I have is a quote to fix with 'High Ze reading into consumer unit' on it.
Well, if it is an EICR you should have all the details.

No report with C1,2,3 on like previously.
Is this actually a private rental property inspection rather than a specific EICR?

No one really knows how or what should be done as far as these are concerned other than carry out an EICR even though they are not quite the same.


Is the CU some distance from the incomer?
 
It was an EICR for a private rental house. Ive been given nothing other than a quote to get up to spec, the quote is minimal and is as listed in the first post sadly. Ive asked for more details.

Consumer unit is next to the incomer.
 
It was an EICR for a private rental house. Ive been given nothing other than a quote to get up to spec, the quote is minimal and is as listed in the first post sadly. Ive asked for more details.
Ok.

Consumer unit is next to the incomer.
In that case there is likely to be little difference between actual Ze at the incomer and Zs at the CU so it depends what the figure is.
 
It was an EICR for a private rental house. Ive been given nothing other than a quote to get up to spec, the quote is minimal and is as listed in the first post sadly. Ive asked for more details.
As you said at the start, one definitely wonders what the electrician proposes to do about the "high Ze", particularly if his quote for doing it is 'minimal'. If it really is a high Ze, and if it's a DNO-supplied earth, then, as you said, there's really nothing that any electrician could do about it.

In any event, "high Zs", per se, is not necessarily a major issue. What matters most is that the Zs of each circuit is low enough- and they could be low enough despite a 'slightly high' Ze. Again, you need to see some figures (Zs for each circuit should be documented on the 'Schedule' tabulation which is part of the EICR).

If he tries to wriggle out of giving you more details, you could explain that you may wish to get quotes from other electricians for the remedial work, so you need to have a clear idea of what needs to be 'remedied' ;)

Kind Regards, John
 
An EICR is what that electrician thinks, there is no laid out what is considered as potentially dangerous, lets face it, 230 volts AC is always potentially dangerous.

The rental rules for an EICR are often impossible to comply with, any item not on wheels and over 18 kg or fixed in some other way is included in the new landlord law, often a washing machine is on wheels, but the dryer, and dishwasher are included in the EICR, and so is the boiler, the latter unless it says on it gas safe only, the electrician should in theory remove the covers to check, specially the way which plumbers seem to ignore the rules and used green/yellow wires for other than earth.

So the question for any electrical installation tester is, do I follow the new law, or do I follow what the IET or electrical safety council recommends? Even to the point where it was always considered if a reasonable sample passed, there is not need to remove every socket to check.

But every edition of BS7671 says with the pre-amble
Installations designed after "date" are to comply with BS 7671:date.
The Regulations apply to the design. erection and verification of electrical installations, also additions and alterations to existing installations. Existing installations that have been installed in accordance with earlier editions of the Regulations may not comply with this edition in every respect. This does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe for continued use or require upgrading.
BS 7671:date includes changes necessary to maintain technical alignment with CENELEC harmonization documents. A summary of the main changes is given below.
So once one reaches that point, if the installation was designed before the date, then one has to look at the regulation in force when it was designed, this would require one to have every copy of BS7671, which is not really an option, so the EICR does not reference to a regulation as such, but to if dangerous or potentially dangerous, so if an inspector says a plastic consumer unit is dangerous, then he must say why.

Fitted in a lift shaft, clearly potentially dangerous, but escape route needs to have no carpet so a carpeted stair case can not be classed as an escape route.

The "CENELEC harmonization documents" are a problem, as I for one have never read them. And also what is down to the electrician, missing smoke alarms clearly are a potentially danger, but not an electrical potentially danger, so it is not down to the electrician to list they are missing, that is down to the fire inspector.

The same applies to batteries in the loft space, no longer permitted, but this is because in a fire they make fighting the fire a lot harder, they are not in themselves a fire risk.

As to Ze, above 200Ω is considered unstable, with a TT supply, but the landlord law says the EICR starts at the isolator, and does not include the DNO meter etc, so although the IET may want it recording, the landlord law says it is not part of the EICR, I personally think that is daft, but I did not write the law.

However we do have a duty of care, the tenant has no say as to if we have one RCD feeding many MCB's or even if a RCD is fitted. He has to accept what the landlord has provided. So be it a freezer defrosting due to power loss, or a shock due to lack of RCD, it is very clear with the Emma Shaw case, had RCD's been fitted, she would not have died, at the time we did not have to fit RCD's, so it was the foreman blamed for not using skilled labour.

The South Wales case, showed how the inspector could be found liable for not doing a good EICR, it was under trading standard he was fined, not any electrical law, so it was a wake up call for the drive by inspectors. The get out is to always find a fault, then one can say hand on heart, I did not inspect further, as clearly work was required to bring it to standard, and it would have involved danger to continue to inspect.

So there is the always find fault approach, so in the future they can say, not my fault, that should have been found when XYZ was corrected. I feel that is wrong, but I know years ago my son was told, always find a fault.
 
That is correct - although if it is a rental property, you will be expected to bring it up to current regulations.


It is - measured at the incoming supply; not the CU.

Is the CU a distance from the incomer? What was the actual measurement?
Untrue. There is no need to have a rental property wholly compliant with present day Regulations.

And whilst Ze is a supply-side issue it still needs to be rectified if it's problematic. Obviously this would be achieved by reporting it to the DNO. I thought that would be obvious.
 
Untrue. There is no need to have a rental property wholly compliant with present day Regulations.
I think you're correct. The 'inspection' (essentially an EICR, although the legislation does not call it that) has to be done in relation to present-day regs, although the legislation is not very clear on this, the associated "Guidance for Landlords" not only uses the term "EICR" but also makes it clear that things coded as C3 do not need to be 'remedied'.

However, if (as sounds as if it probably the case for the OP) the plastic CU has been given a C2, then there would be a requirement to 'upgrade' it - and with no appeal process against that coding of which I am aware
And whilst Ze is a supply-side issue it still needs to be rectified if it's problematic.
As I've written, I'm not sure that it is particularly problematic if Zs on all circuits is satisfactory.
Obviously this would be achieved by reporting it to the DNO. I thought that would be obvious.
Yes, the OP and myself have already made that point - as you say, is is 'obvious', provided that it is a DNO-supplied TN earth. For all we know (on the basis of such limited information) It could be that it's a TT rod that is currently inadequate, in which case that would, equally 'obviously' be for the OP to have remedied.
 
Untrue. There is no need to have a rental property wholly compliant with present day Regulations.
And whilst Ze is a supply-side issue it still needs to be rectified if it's problematic. Obviously this would be achieved by reporting it to the DNO. I thought that would be obvious.
It appears that you did not understand my answers very well.
 
I think you're correct. The 'inspection' (essentially an EICR, although the legislation does not call it that) has to be done in relation to present-day regs, although the legislation is not very clear on this, the associated "Guidance for Landlords" not only uses the term "EICR" but also makes it clear that things coded as C3 do not need to be 'remedied'.

However, if (as sounds as if it probably the case for the OP) the plastic CU has been given a C2, then there would be a requirement to 'upgrade' it - and with no appeal process against that coding of which I am aware

As I've written, I'm not sure that it is particularly problematic if Zs on all circuits is satisfactory.

Yes, the OP and myself have already made that point - as you say, is is 'obvious', provided that it is a DNO-supplied TN earth. For all we know (on the basis of such limited information) It could be that it's a TT rod that is currently inadequate, in which case that would, equally 'obviously' be for the OP to have remedied.
Hence why I stated "if it is problematic". However if it is outside of the DNO's design criteria (even if Zs is tolerable throughout) then there may be an issue which needs rectifying, e.g. a poor joint. So it cannot simply be ignored - although it will be for the DNO to determine whether it's acceptable or not.

In the case of a TT electrode that may well be an Ra measurement rather than Ze. I don't believe anyone sought to imply that Direct Earthing was being referenced.
 
Hence why I stated "if it is problematic". However if it is outside of the DNO's design criteria (even if Zs is tolerable throughout) then there may be an issue which needs rectifying, e.g. a poor joint. So it cannot simply be ignored - although it will be for the DNO to determine whether it's acceptable or not.
Exactly - if it is 'problematic', then that's for the DNO to decide and, if necessary, address. It's clearly not something that the Landlord, or any electrician, can do anything about (or, necessarily, even decide whether it is 'problematic'). However, as I said, the OP more-or-less knew that when he posted his initial message.
In the case of a TT electrode that may well be an Ra measurement rather than Ze. I don't believe anyone sought to imply that Direct Earthing was being referenced.
I don't think anyone "sought to imply" anything - it's simply the case that, as I said, we have been told absolutely nothing about the type of earthing - so it presumably is possible that it is TT?
 

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Back
Top