Cable routing around door frame

[Moneyer]

We recently had a full rewire done by an NICEIC electrician. He quoted for a complete rewire, and has issued a cert saying he has done a complete rewire of all circuits. During the work he asked if he could re-use a few cable runs which he said were in good condition and where access was difficult. He said he had tested the cable and it was perfectly safe, so we agreed.

To cut a long story short, it turned out one of these cables (a spur from a socket in a bedroom to a heater in the en suite) was routed up the side of a doorframe (between the architrave and wall, not in a corner). A few weeks after completion of the rewire, a joiner fitting a door put a screw through the cable causing significant damage. The joiner says it wasn't a proper place for a cable. The electrician says it is "just one of those things" and wants to charge us for repairs.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't know if it is normal to reuse existing cable runs during a complete rewire, but if he did so I guess he should have made sure they complied with current regs. So it comes down to whether the regs allow this cable routing. Anybody know about this, or have other comments?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

• http://www.voltimum.co.uk/files/gb/attachments/niu/l/attachments/c5-43.pdf
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20061110111450/http://www.niceic.org.uk/downloads/concealedcables.pdf
  
  
• IEE article
  
  
• IEE Article on 17th Edition requirements for concealed cables.

 

[Chri5]

If the electrician doing the rewire didn't charge you for the cabling to the heater he can't really be blamed for a 3rd party contractor putting a screw through it.

The 16th and 17th editions mentioned cable routes, if the cable was installed a few decades ago- at that time it may have been acceptable to route a cable under a door architrave.

Any contractor doing fixing work should test for sub surface obstacles with a detector. Since he cause the damage, he should be asked to pay for it's repair.

The issue being that it should be repaired it should be removed and routed correctly within a safe zone. Now such routing to a safe zone will take longer and be a harder task than if fair (to cross charge for).

It's you house, your call. I'd suggest you accept that it's fair to be charged for the work by the spark, and maybe a tad unfair to cross charge the door fitter.

If you really want to wind up the spark, look on the EIC sheet, if he hasn't noted the insitu cable as a departure (since it's not 17th ed standard he should have), then you could sue.

 

[1john]

Was the spark likely to have known that the cable was running there??

 

[ban-all-sheds]

He quoted for a complete rewire, and has issued a cert saying he has done a complete rewire

 

[sparkwright]

You can't call it a complete rewire if it isn't a complete rewire.

However, on some rewires it is sometimes reasonable not replace any wiring that is relatively new and done properly if it causes a lot of unnecessary work.

For example, if your kitchen had been rewired say 5 years ago, you wouldn't expect it to be re-done, would you? However, it would be very important to check it thoroughly for defects.

It's not always easy to tell how the cables have been buried in the wall though, so a bit of experience may help to decide where the cables could be. Your electrician should have had some idea where the cables went. You should send some pictures in, so we can see if it was obvious that the cable was where it was.

Possibly he was being lazy not replacing the older cables, possibly he thought all was well and was just trying to save you a lot of damage. You did agree to him leaving in some of the old wiring; you could have said no.

It was bad practice installing that cable in that way in the first place.

You need to decide if it was obvious to your electrician how that cable was installed.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You can't call it a complete rewire if it isn't a complete rewire.

But he did, and that will come back to bite him.

 

[Moneyer]

Thanks for the replies everyone. To answer a few questions, house was a complete renovation project so avoiding damage to decoration etc during rewire wasn't really an issue.

Old wiring was not actually that old but wrecked by huge amounts of dodgy DIY changes by previous owner. We were being quoted ~£1000 just for tracing, with no guarantee the outcome wouldn't be a full rewire anyway, so we decided to bite the bullet. Given the state of it, I don't think the electrician could reasonably have assumed anything existing had been done competently: we agreed to him re-using cable runs on the basis he said he had tested them.

I take the point that the joiner could/should have checked with a detector, but presumably the electrician could have traced the cable run he was planning to use in the same way to see it was properly routed....?! Will try to take some pictures and upload them when I get a chance.....

 

[cajar]

The electrician is clearly liable as he was hired to do a full rewire. Asking the customer whether he can skip some cables is a cop out and lets face it, done for his own convenience.

The joiner expected to be working on a house that'd been fully rewired so it's reasonable for him to expect not to have live cables in door liners.

Electrician should make it right at his own expense and count himself lucky he isnt facing a fatal accident enquiry.

 

[Chri5]

If he wasn't paid for the work, as in discounted the quoted price or offset the saved work against an addition then it all becomes murky.

Did he ask you if he could re use the cable- YES

Did he know the cable route- NO

Can't you just agree a price and then suggest a 50:50, as in he discounts and bares half the cost ?

 

[sparkwright]

It's quite possible the customer was pleased some of the old wiring could be used, to save money (perhaps) and get the job quicker.

The electrician have been under the impression that the old wiring he didn't replace becomes 'existing', and not his responsibility. In other words he's only concerned with his cables. It's very likely he didn't know the route of the cable though.

I would have expected some goodwill from both the electrician and the customer over this matter.

You don't say how easy replacing this cable was, or if it caused a lot of damage. It seems you had a joiner fitting doors/architraves which suggests the building work is still taking place. If so, had the electrician finished all his work? If not, and he had to come back anyway, it seems unfair charging for the repair.

Giving the nature of the fault, and the cable run, I would have thought the electrician would have mended it for free, as he may be a bit embarrassed by it all.

 

[Moneyer]

Thanks again everyone. Re the issue of what we paid for, he was working to a fixed-price quotation for a full rewire rather than being paid for each aspect.

Re whether he could have known the cable routing, I think even I could have figured it out and I know nothing about electrics. An isolation swtich (which he replaced) for the heater is located about one inch to the right of the door. The spur into it comes from a socket (also replaced) much further down the wall, about a foot to the right of the door. Looking inside the isolation switch, it is obvious that the supply cable (in fact, both cables) leaves to the LEFT, heading for the door. It can't continue until a corner because the door is in the way, so the only sensible guess is that it turns down the edge of the door-frame, which if I understand the links is not a permitted zone (since it is not directly below the switch).....

 

[oharaf]

Personally i think the Electrician is on dodgy ground, especially if he has not made notes on the certificate regarding the reused cables and their unknown routes.

You thought that the original circuits and/or works were dubious so you went for the full re-wire.

That is what should have happened, the sparks has pulled a fast one but you've agreed to it.

I assume you told the joiner you had had a rewire? If so he would not expect to find a cable behind the door frame/architrave. If this is the case it is not his fault imho!!

Can of worms opened here!!

 

[ebee]

The electrician is liable