more brexit

[Judy in the sky]

The majority of EU nationals in UK are working and paying taxes, etc.
The majority of UK nationals in EU are retired and reliant on UK pensions, winter fuel allowance and NHS paying for medical treatments.
Even allowing for UK citizens of working age returning to UK will result in a skills mismatch.

Can you provide a link to prove that the majority of UK nationals living in the EU are retired and/or reliant on UK pensions, winter fuel allowance and NHS paying for medical treatment ? (or is this another of your unsubstantiated claims?)
Can you also provide a link so we can see just how many of our EU cousins living and working here in the UK are claiming family allowance for children (not living in the UK), claiming family working tax credit for children ,( not living in the UK)

Cheers

 

[noseall]

As will the majority of the 1.2million British nationals living and working in the EU. Or are you suggesting that there won't be a reciprocal agreement? Ahh, you are aren't you.. Yep let's leave the EU then agree that 2.9 million of them can live here, just as long as we take back 1.2million of ours.. Yep that'll work.

Having a nice chat to yourself or just making stuff up on a whim, as per eh Judith.
Silly Judith.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Can you provide a link to prove that the majority of UK nationals living in the EU are retired and/or reliant on UK pensions, winter fuel allowance and NHS paying for medical treatment ? (or is this another of your unsubstantiated claims?)

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

Can you also provide a link so we can see just how many of our EU cousins living and working here in the UK are claiming family allowance for children (not living in the UK), claiming family working tax credit for children ,( not living in the UK)
Cheers

This is your opinion, you prove your point, if you can.
If you do, it proves one main difference, that UK workers in EU take their children and spouses with them. Whereas, according to you, EU workers in UK leave their spouses and children behind in their own country, thereby skewing the difference in numbers of UK citizens in EU and vice-versa. In that the number of UK citizens in EU include spouses and children, whereas EU citizens in UK are mainly just the workers, according to your assumption.

 

[SirGalahad]

So lets say we implemented comprehensive exit and entry checks.

Now we can ask all EU citizens to register with the threat of deportation if they do not. Sure lots may not register but at least we will have a start on who to look for and make decisions to deport.

This is far fairer, equitable, cheaper, pragmatic and sensible than Brexit.

The main aim will be looking at the status of EU citizens who have been here for over 3 months who are not working or able to support themselves - because is that the ones people are most upset about.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

So lets say we implemented comprehensive exit and entry checks.

And take students out of the immigration figures.
A decision that the government has refused, despite robust arguments and evidence to suggest that they should be excluded from immigration figures.

Alternatively, if your suggest was implemented then students could be tracked and recorded as returned home.
This would then demonstrate that the governments decision was wrong in the first place.

 

[SirGalahad]

And take students out of the immigration figures.
A decision that the government has refused, despite robust arguments and evidence to suggest that they should be excluded from immigration figures.

Alternatively, if your suggest was implemented then students could be tracked and recorded as returned home.
This would then demonstrate that the governments decision was wrong in the first place.

Students can be tracked - its simpler, when their studies are completed they can get a 6 month run on visa to decide to stay in the UK and find work or go home.

We need a sensible approach to immigration.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Students can be tracked - its simpler, when their studies are completed they can get a 6 month run on visa to decide to stay in the UK and find work or go home.

Only if entry and exit checks are implemented, as in your suggestion.

We need a sensible approach to immigration.

But it is not sensible to include students in immigration data. It effectively inflates the immigration data, especially as there is no way (currently) of knowing whether those students have indeed returned home.

 

[SirGalahad]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...heresa-may-worse-anyone-guessed-a7858586.html

Watch the video - the argument that we cannot control our borders whilst in the EU.

 

[SirGalahad]

Only if entry and exit checks are implemented, as in your suggestion.


But it is not sensible to include students in immigration data. It effectively inflates the immigration data, especially as there is no way (currently) of knowing whether those students have indeed returned home.

I think it is sensible to look at this as short term or temporary immigration as those that stay within 5 years and leave and those that want to remain here longer or permanently.

In either case it would not alter the number of people in the UK - just what category you place them in.

Having robust exit and entry checks is what any sensible government would do. To depoliticise the immigration debate to one of economics and not nationalism.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

I think it is sensible to look at this as short term or temporary immigration as those that stay within 5 years and leave and those that want to remain here longer or permanently.

In either case it would not alter the number of people in the UK - just what category you place them in.

Having robust exit and entry checks is what any sensible government would do. To depoliticise the immigration debate to one of economics and not nationalism.

The number of students that legally stay are easily accounted for, they apply for permanent visas, and if they qualify, that is granted.
In 2014 it was:

In 2014, only 5,639 students were granted leave to stay in the UK under a Tier 2 visa, according to the UK Council for International Student Affairs (UKCISA).

https://www.theguardian.com/educati...-the-tough-reality-for-international-students
A tiny fraction of the total number of students in UK, which is estimated to be:

https://institutions.ukcisa.org.uk/...--statistics/International-students-in-UK-HE/

We can assume that each year there is an equal amount of students finishing their studies as those starting, so in theory the leavers and arrivals should cancel each other out, except that there has been a fall in the amount of students wanting to study in UK since the referendum.

I suppose, somewhere down the line the government will take the student figures out of the immigration figures, and then claim that they have drastically reduced immigration, because there are an additional 310,000 non-EU students.

https://institutions.ukcisa.org.uk/...--statistics/International-students-in-UK-HE/

 

[SirGalahad]

The number of students that legally stay are easily accounted for, they apply for permanent visas, and if they qualify, that is granted.
In 2014 it was:
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...-the-tough-reality-for-international-students
A tiny fraction of the total number of students in UK, which is estimated to be:
https://institutions.ukcisa.org.uk/...--statistics/International-students-in-UK-HE/

We can assume that each year there is an equal amount of students finishing their studies as those starting, so in theory the leavers and arrivals should cancel each other out, except that there has been a fall in the amount of students wanting to study in UK since the referendum.

I suppose, somewhere down the line the government will take the student figures out of the immigration figures, and then claim that they have drastically reduced immigration, because there are an additional 310,000 non-EU students.
https://institutions.ukcisa.org.uk/...--statistics/International-students-in-UK-HE/

We now have two extremes - the leavers who feel the price of economic carnage is worth paying to take our country back and remainers who now hope that economic carnage will result in a lesson for the leavers.

 

[Doggit]

As more than 30 fake universities were shut down as of last August, it show that it can't be assumed that all overseas students are here legally, nor that they intend to remain legaly after they have supposedly completed their non existent studies. And it can also be assumed that although a large number will apply to stay after their studies, many will disapear into the cash in hand system.

As the government has no way of assesing who is here, or whether they have overstayed their alloted time, it's much easier for the govenment to leave them out of the official statisticts; which also helps to lower the immigration figures as well.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Are you saying these fake universities are for facilitating illegal immigration or

are they, more likely, for ripping off the students and making money under false pretences?

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

We now have two extremes - the leavers who feel the price of economic carnage is worth paying to take our country back and remainers who now hope that economic carnage will result in a lesson for the leavers.

I have no idea how you managed to come to that conclusion from my comment.
Perhaps you might like to explain?

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

As more than 30 fake universities were shut down as of last August, it show that it can't be assumed that all overseas students are here legally, nor that they intend to remain legaly after they have supposedly completed their non existent studies.

More than 30 fake UK universities have been shut down in the past year as concern grows about students being mis-sold fraudulent degrees.
Of the 32 fake institutions closed, 25 were based overseas
“All the ones that were shut down were completely bogus,” said Rowley. “The completely fake sites that talk of campuses of students when there’s literally nothing there at all.”

https://www.theguardian.com/educati...an-30-fake-uk-universities-closed-by-watchdog

Around 80 per cent of the fake institutions reported to the Higher Education Degree Datacheck (HEDD) are based outside Britain, meaning they cannot be prosecuted.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/e...-fraud-degrees-higher-education-a7171871.html
There were no students studying. It was a front for selling bogus qualifications! There were no students in the UK for these bogus universities! Get a grip!

And it can also be assumed that although a large number will apply to stay after their studies, many will disapear into the cash in hand system.

There were no students in the UK for these bogus universities! They were just selling bogus qualifications!

As the government has no way of assesing who is here, or whether they have overstayed their alloted time, it's much easier for the govenment to leave them out of the official statisticts; which also helps to lower the immigration figures as well.

But they do include them in the immigration data!

Theresa May's refusal to remove foreign students from immigration figures

Your whole comment appears to be based on a misunderstanding of reality!