Scotland Independence Vote

[JohnW2]

It would seem that around 1700 (fairly soon after the word "chairman" was first used), the word "chairwoman" also first came into use. That seems to indicate that, even back then, at least some people must have believed that "chairman" was gender-specific (rather than taking BAS's view).

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnD]

fireman, binman, cleaning lady, chairman - all obsolete now.

There are always a few old fogies who try to cling to the past.

 

[JohnW2]

fireman, binman, cleaning lady, chairman - all obsolete now.

I'm not sure that obsolete is necessarily the right word. No matter what definition one uses, there's no doubt that there are still firemen, binmen cleaning ladies and chairmen around!

There are always a few old fogies who try to cling to the past.

In some situations, that may be the sensible approach. I recently saw a proposal that universities should stop awarding Batchelor's and Master's degrees - or, at least, not award them to women. However, that's really just very established and very entrenched terminology, which I doubt many normal people would regard as retaining any relation to gender, let alone being 'sexist'. I certainly can't recall ever having heard a women complaining that she had been awarded a Master's degree!

As with so many things, I think the real need is for a little common sense.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The first duty of a grammarian or a lexicographer is to establish how a language is used. Not to lay down rules on how he thinks it should be used.

The first duty of anybody with knowledge is to resist the proliferation of ignorance.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It would seem that around 1700 (fairly soon after the word "chairman" was first used), the word "chairwoman" also first came into use. That seems to indicate that, even back then, at least some people must have believed that "chairman" was gender-specific (rather than taking BAS's view).

I never imagined that misuse and ignorance were recent phenomena.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

fireman, binman, cleaning lady, chairman - all obsolete now.

There are always a few old fogies who try to cling to the past.

You really are very determined to prove that you don't know anything about it, aren't you.

 

[ericmark]

"Fred is a cleaner. His job title is "cleaning lady." He used to be called a "charwoman."

"Mary is chair of BG. Her job title is "chairman""

"Susanne collects rubbish. Her job title is "binman""

"Anastasia drives a fire engine. Her job title is "Fireman""


Utter nonsense.

I am sure your right man or woman they are both mankind so yes the Mayor is called a Mayor what ever the sex of person holding office and their spouse is called the Mayoress again what ever sex they are.

However I do remember where the Chairperson for local IET was very upset at being called Chairman it had paid a lot of money to be made to look like a Woman and now objected to being called a man even if when born it was a boy.

To me does not matter what sex Fireman, Dustman, Chairman refers to being a member of mankind not the sex. I object to Chairperson just as I object to some one calling my wife my partner. She is my wife not partner and how dare anyone accuse me of producing bastards I really do get upset at that suggestion and tell people in no uncertain terms.

 

[JohnW2]

It would seem that around 1700 (fairly soon after the word "chairman" was first used), the word "chairwoman" also first came into use. That seems to indicate that, even back then, at least some people must have believed that "chairman" was gender-specific (rather than taking BAS's view).

I never imagined that misuse and ignorance were recent phenomena.

I'm really not clear as to how you can be so sure that it was "misuse and ignorance". If, at about that same point in time, it was felt appropriate to start using both "chairman" and "chairwomen", doesn't that suggest that the former may at least possibly have been derived on the basis of a gender-specific meaning of "-man"?

You seem to have an awful lot of faith in the opinions of academics, hundreds of years down the road, as to how the words were originally derived (or evolved).

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

...the Mayor is called a Mayor what ever the sex of person holding office and their spouse is called the Mayoress again what ever sex they are.

Are you sure about that? I've never heard of a husband of a female mayor being called a "mayoress", have you?!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Yes and it upset him which of course mean we used it even more.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes and it upset him which of course mean we used it even more.

I think something's wrong there. Every dictionary I can find defines "mayoress" as "a female mayor, or wife of a mayor", or words to that effect - none say that the word can be applied to the male husband of a female mayor (and that hardly surprises me!)!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

AFAIK there is no term for the male spouse of a female mayor. And that is gender-biased, as when the terms were coined there was no conception of a female mayor.

Whether "mayoress" is the right term for a female mayor is debatable, as originally it did apply to the wife of a male mayor.

And "mayor" comes straight from the Latin word "major", meaning greater, and is gender neutral.

There are also no terms for the male spouse of a male mayor or female spouse of a female one.

Probably the answer is to have a mayor, and not have any term for their wife/husband/whatever.

 

[JohnW2]

AFAIK there is no term for the male spouse of a female mayor.

AFAIAA, too - and it would be quite ridiculous for it to be "mayoress". I think eric is wrong.

Whether "mayoress" is the right term for a female mayor is debatable, as originally it did apply to the wife of a male mayor.

I'm sure you're right about the original use/meaning, since I imagine the word was used long before there were any female mayors. However, in terms of accepted/acceptable current usage, dictionaries (including OED) seem unanimous in including both meanings, without any comments I've seen suggesting that use of the word for female mayors is undesirable.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm sure you're right about the original use/meaning, since I imagine the word was used long before there were any female mayors.

It was. And in that context it worked just fine.

However, in terms of accepted/acceptable current usage, dictionaries (including OED) seem unanimous in including both meanings, without any comments I've seen suggesting that use of the word for female mayors is undesirable.

It's clearly undesirable, as it immediately creates problems.

It is wrong-headed, illogical, and arose because of ignorance of the fact that the word "mayor", per se, did not in any way mean a male holder of the office.

Between 1992 and 2000 Betty Boothroyd was not The Speakeress.

Between 1979 and 1990, Margaret Thatcher was not the Prime Ministeress.

Whilst retaining the term "mayor" for female office holders would have done nothing about the problem of what to call her spouse, changing it to "mayoress" did nothing either.

It was pointless, and it was unnecessary, and it was done in ignorance.

It was wrong, and the fact that it has become an established usage does not change the fact that it was wrong.

 

[JBR]

In some situations, that may be the sensible approach. I recently saw a proposal that universities should stop awarding Batchelor's and Master's degrees - or, at least, not award them to women.

What's wrong with that?

Spinster of Science
Mistress of Arts

They just roll off the tongue, don't they?