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[IT Minion]

I'm not saying that quite a number of deaths are not expected anyway. I am simply saying that even deaths which were/are expected are being NOTIFIED as deaths from Covid instead of being stated as 'complicated by'. If you subtract the number of deaths that were/are expected for this time of year from the total deaths, you will probably find a much smaller number are as a direct result of contracting Covid.

If you're saying that Covid-19 is being over counted, and that some of the Covid-19 deaths are probably just run of the mill deaths that are misfiled then you're probably wrong. I haven't checked the numbers for the last few weeks but in general that is the exact opposite of what was seen.

The number of excess deaths was significantly higher than the number of deaths which were attributed to Covid-19. Which could mean that Covid-19 is being undercounted, or it could mean that side effects of the Covid-19 pandemic (lack of normal treatment, avoiding hospitals etc.) are causing more deaths or a combination of the two (my bet).

It is possible that Covid-19 is actually less deadly itself and some deaths are caused by the side effects of living through a pandemic, but that's a big claim to make.

 

[JohnD]

During London's Great Smog, it only became clear how serious it was when undertakers ran out of coffins.

Guess what?


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...es-face-four-week-wait-chipboard-caskets.html

 

[Deleted member 18243]

What annoys me is that the vast majority of deaths that have occurred, (and let's be honest, a lot of them would have occurred anyway because of age, disease etc), are being marked down as dying from Covid-19. This is false information! Covid-19 may have played a part in their death by complicating/compromising a condition they already had, and of which they would probably have died from anyway, but to say Covid killed them is wrong.

Quite so. Pneumonia, which was known as "the old man's friend" often finishes off the very old and sick. Always has done, but how often has it been recorded as pneumonia, in say, a person in hospital with cancer, or one with heart failure?

If you've got nothing better to do, have a read of this:

https://hectordrummond.com/2020/05/09/alistair-haimes-the-virus-that-turned-up-late/

He says there have been bigger killer diseases in the recent past, and that we hardly noticed them at the time! For example, the flu seasons of 1998/99 and 1999/2000.

I don't agree or disagree with him, or any pundit holding forth on Coronavirus, because we are in unknown territory. However I do find a contrary opinion interesting, and the sheep mentality boring.

 

[Vinty]

There must be some reason for 60,000 excess deaths in the UK since the pandemic began.
If CV19 is not responsible, then what else could be responsible.
As the NHS has not been overwhelmed as some people feared then lack of access to medical treatment for other conditions cannot be the reason.

 

[Brigadier]

So, to take your statistic of 70% (which I think is wrong, I'd seen 1/3 mortality in those serious enough to go to hospital) then without medical care would it still be 70, or 80 or 90%?

It was correct at time of writing (serious enough to require ventilation; it was reported in the BMJ, iirc), but I do concede that it may have changed in light of increasing knowledge / passing of time.

 

[Brigadier]

As the NHS has not been overwhelmed as some people feared then lack of access to medical treatment for other conditions cannot be the reason.

There are a number of aspects to this, which may undermine your statement:

- withdrawal of NHS provision for some treatments, in anticipation of a CV "rush"; this happened;
- withdrawal of healthcare (i.e. dentistry); how many oral cancers, as an example, are currently developing, which would ordinarily have been picked up in routine examinations?
- (as an aside, how many top-of-head-or-ear skin cancers are developing, which barbers do sometimes notice, and now aren't?)
- people with genuine health concerns not seeking healthcare, for fear of getting CV in a hospital setting.

 

[JohnD]

There must be some reason for 60,000 excess deaths in the UK since the pandemic began.

 

[Notch7]

What annoys me is that the vast majority of deaths that have occurred, (and let's be honest, a lot of them would have occurred anyway because of age, disease etc), are being marked down as dying from Covid-19. This is false information! Covid-19 may have played a part in their death by complicating/compromising a condition they already had, and of which they would probably have died from anyway, but to say Covid killed them is wrong

Are they marked down as Covid? -Im not disagreeing with you, Im just asking.

My guess is that there will be lots of deaths that were caused by Covid but marked down differently and vica versa -knowing the actual figure is never going to be really known.

There is also the difficult discussion around what constitutes a premature death -If Covid killed them, did they die 3 weeks, 3 months, a year prematurely? -what timescale can we attribute Covid as the cause?

 

[conny]

I agree we will never know the true figures and as for premature death, well as I said, when it comes to terminal illnesses the expected lifespan is and always will be a guesstimate on behalf of the medical person stating it. Some people have been given a terminal illness diagnosis with an expectancy of, say 5 years, but succumbed in much less time. Others have gone way beyond the expected guesstimated deadline for no apparent reason.

 

[durhamplumber]

I suppose how I should have worded it was, short of having a time machine (and going back to a time when you were younger, slimmer, didn't have high blood pressure etc etc etc), there is pretty much nothing the NHS or anyone else can do for you, other than [pray, for want of a better word].

So all the people on ventilators,having there respiratory system supported,,waste of time? Because they would die or survive anyway? More odd thinking from you.

 

[ellal]

So all the people on ventilators,waste of time? Because they would die or survive anyway?

Looking at the evidence from countries who employed better tactics earlier and recorded their data suggests so!

More odd thinking from you.

Look in the mirror when discussing 'odd thinking'!

 

[durhamplumber]

Looking at the evidence from countries who employed better tactics earlier

Better treatments maybe Lal,,,but that does not mean ventilators have been a 100% failure for a 100% of patients.Of course various treatments are available,huge difference between treating people and not,because they will live or die anyway.

 

[Deleted member 18243]

View attachment 194001

Usual anti-British post from John D!

 

[JohnD]

Poor Andy doesn't like to see things that show the country in a bad light.

Best not to look at them, andy. Put your fingers in your ears and sing Rule Britannia, perhaps those nasty facts will go away.

That's what Buffoon does. Has it worked for him?

The only alternative would be to do things, y'know, better.

 

[Brigadier]

So all the people on ventilators,having there respiratory system supported,,waste of time? Because they would die or survive anyway? More odd thinking from you.

Not "my thinking" you plum, it was what the ITU doctors and consultants were reporting.