If Brexit doesn't happen

[SammyInnit]

You would much rather have something you didn't vote for, than admit being led down the garden path towards something you have no idea about, let alone its benefits, rather than admitting it is likely to be a bad move?

So you still support something you cannot detail or specify?

It's almost like I've just told you what I voted for but you'll try and put words into my mouth regardless.

Theres a difference between being sold one thing and given another.

I was aware of what I thought I was voting for. What I get is irrelevant to what you're implying; but as I said, I'd rather be out than not and it looks as though that will be the case. Her chequers plan is a dead duck.

 

[Notch7]

You would much rather have something you didn't vote for, than admit being led down the garden path towards something you have no idea about

that sounds like the EU

 

[JP_]

Serious question (on a brexit thread, is that even allowed?) - how many of you used to vote in the European elections, and if you did, did you check what candidates were doing or canvassing etc. in their positions as MEPs?

I ask because one of the big arguments against EU seems to be how undemocratic it is, but, we have (had?) regular elections to place British politicians in the EU parliament (one of whom is obviously Nigel FARAGE), as do all other countries. It is certainly not a dictatorship, and certainly not run by unelected politicians.

 

[cwhaley]

@jonbey -- But the European Commission is ran by 28 un-elected, unaccountable commissioners. As for our percentage of the 751 MEPs you mention, they don't have the right to propose laws. The real decision making is made behind closed doors -- where there is no public visibility and little in the way of published approval documents.

The idea of the nation state may erode over time and this may be the right evolutionary future of Europe, but the way the EU is doing it and the rate at which this is happening is scary. That is one of the reasons why I voted to separate from the current political and economic union.

From a trade perspective I have some experience of how it might go should we leave/note leave. I work at the HQ of a large pharmacy-led retailing chain. I work in Construction and Projects and we now have a "Brexit Department". We have established links with Asian firms to supply materials in case the satellites of the EU don't want to make money by selling to us anymore. If we don't leave the EU we'll carry on buying from it, if we do leave it and for some reason we suddenly start facing massive difficulties procuring goods, we'll just go to Asia. We already source a fair amount of kit from there already and everyone is aware of the longer (but shortening) lead times.

If the government backs out of this, there will - and so rightly should be - a revolt. Not just because they have denied us our voted wishes but because it highlights the wider issue of there being a long-term lack of "democracy" in this country, going back Centuries.

 

[EFLImpudence]

If the government backs out of this, there will - and so rightly should be - a revolt.

The revolt should be happening already because the majority of M.P.s are carrying out policies which they believe are detrimental to the country.

They are liars.
If disagreeing with the result and not willing to go against the vote, should have resigned - as did Cameron.

Not just because they have denied us our voted wishes but because it highlights the wider issue of there being a long-term lack of "democracy" in this country, going back Centuries.

They made a mistake.
You are only allowed to vote if you vote for what they want.


Let's have a referendum on abolishing income tax, fuel duty and V.A.T.

 

[JP_]

But, they are not really unelected, and certainly not unaccountable...
" the Commission can only propose EU laws in areas where the UK government and the House of Commons has allowed it to do so."
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/06/21/is-the-eu-really-run-by-unelected-bureaucrats/
It also explains how commissioners are elected.

It's no a little bit like saying that the front bench are not elected to do those jobs and its undemocratic for the Prime Minister to pick and chose who runs her cabinet.
Many parts of government are like this. When did anybody vote for the head of the
HM Revenue & Customs or Forestry Commission? And like with business, people often earn their place running these organisations by doing a good job - they are def not unaccountable for their actions.

Not here to argue though, was just curious why people keep calling it undemocratic.

Let's just hope it'll be worth it in the end. We'll muddle through the mess that will come, everything will be OK.

 

[cwhaley]

They made a mistake.
You are only allowed to vote if you vote for what they want.

And it all adds to the illusion of us living in a democratic nation simply because we are "allowed" to vote.

We don't even have a written constitution or our own version of a bill of rights. We have a hotchpotch of different laws and documents somehow mangled together which makes it easier for the government to wrangle out of outlining our rights as people. Until we create a unified document, we will never be able to hold the government to account and tell them when they are defying us.

 

[SirGalahad]

Democracy requires an informed public free from manipulation.

 

[SirGalahad]

And it all adds to the illusion of us living in a democratic nation simply because we are "allowed" to vote.

We don't even have a written constitution or our own version of a bill of rights. We have a hotchpotch of different laws and documents somehow mangled together which makes it easier for the government to wrangle out of outlining our rights as people. Until we create a unified document, we will never be able to hold the government to account and tell them when they are defying us.

Like a unifying document can't be amended and edited. Does democracy mean we cannot revisit the idea ever again?

 

[cwhaley]

Not here to argue though, was just curious why people keep calling it undemocratic.

Let's just hope it'll be worth it in the end. We'll muddle through the mess that will come, everything will be OK.

Agree with you - not here for argument. For me the fact that so many important decisions about our future (ignoring defense) are made behind closed doors with no published minutes is enough for me to call them undemocratic.

 

[cwhaley]

Like a unifying document can't be amended and edited. Does democracy mean we cannot revisit the idea ever again?

We are owed a document that outlines what rights and freedoms we have as a peoples. We are one of only 3 modern democracies without a written constitution and it's crucially important we get one as we look set to depart the EU.

 

[Bodd]

Does democracy mean we cannot revisit the idea ever again?

Until you get the right result?

 

[JP_]

Democracy requires an informed public free from manipulation.

That sounds impossible, if you consider manipulation to be everything from party political broadcasts and canvassing to tabloid newspapers and social media.

Democracy is dead.

 

[noseall]

Until you get the right result?

Correct. Why settle for the wrong one?

 

[Bodd]

Correct. Why settle for the wrong one?

Why indeed