New combi boiler - am I being bullied and ripped off?

[teaboyjim]

Thanks Chris. Just to clarify: NO parts were installed, the engineer took them away with him, and he only said I would be charged for the parts IF he installed them. What is he saying I will be charged for however, is all the time that he spent at my address if I do not purchase a boiler from them and I go elsewhere to get one fitted. As I say, I do not mind paying something towards the engineer coming out and diagnosing my boiler issue, but what I do mind is paying "by the hour" for him chit-chatting to me and my family for absolutely ages, when no work as such was being done. The only "work" the engineer did was very quickly diagnose the fault, order parts, and then come back the following day with the intention to install said replacement parts - but he talked me out of having the repair work done and wanted me to buy a new boiler from him. If the quote for the boiler was reasonable (it doesn't seem to be?), then I would have agreed to have a new boiler installed with him, but I think the quote is excessive, so want to go elsewhere.

Why take the parts away? Could they be exaggerating the fault in the first place. Did they take the faulty parts away or did they just take the "new" replacement parts away again?

 

[teaboyjim]

Don't be pressured...they sound like a bunch of crooks.
99% of leaks on the RHS are the plastic adapter a £5 part (simple job), if the return manifold is leaking that part's under £150 (an hours job).
So add in the legal safety checks and he's ripping you off.
Every part's available for that boiler and there's always the option of Worcesters own fixed price repair.
Offer to pay £60 for diagnosis to get rid of them (of course they had no intention of repairing it) and if they want more tell them they can invoice you and go down the CCJ route...and they are very unlikely to do that knowing how incompetent they are.
These boilers although not always particularly easy to repair are certainly not a nightmare...there are far worse models out there.

Well done for coming to DIYnot.com - You may well have saved yourself over £1,000 - I love it when knowledge translates into something so practical and tangible as a financial saving.

 

[bernardgreen]

Why take the parts away? Could they be exaggerating the fault in the first place.

Possibly to conceal the fact that the part was repairable. It is not unknown for "unrepairable" parts to be taken away for "safe disposal" and then be repaired and sold as new to the next customer who employs the tradesman.

If a part is replaced with the tradesman charging full price then the old part should be retained by the customer for safe disposal It would at least prevent badly repaired items being sold on to other customers

 

[Gasguru]

Virtually every Worcester is repairable going back 25 years...they carry parts for a long time and the Greenstar Juniors have been around since 2005/5 almost unchanged in design.
It's only a main heat exchanger failure that would write off the boiler although Worcester may even replace that on a fixed price deal.
It's so common for gas installers to masquerade as repair engineers when their sole intention is to get a new boiler sale, this underhand practice is supported by the manufacturers who both reward
and pressure their installer base with extra incentives upon reaching targets.

 

[teaboyjim]

It's so common for gas installers to masquerade as repair engineers when their sole intention is to get a new boiler sale, this underhand practice is supported by the manufacturers who both reward and pressure their installer base with extra incentives upon reaching targets.

Is a "Boiler repair engineer" a different trade than a "Gas Installer"?

 

[Gasguru]

The heating/gas industry only requires that you can work safely with gas and no more.
You don't need to have any understanding of heating systems or how boilers operate to gain accreditation and your licence to work.
What you call yourself is down to you...there's no legal framework.
I would say I'm an occasional installer/repair technician/heating design engineer (when calculations are required)...but only my gas safety competence is assessed at 5 yearly intervals during the ACS re-sit and occasional Gas-Safe inspections as part of the annual licence renewal (and many of us consider it futile).
Of course other countries have very stringent legal definitions...engineers often requiring education to degree level.

 

[muggles]

Manufacturers do not check the installers on their list....all you need is to go on the days sales course to be a "verified" or "accredited" installer. I've known some absolute crooks that were Worcester accredited.

Vaillant's is even more ridiculous. I became a Vaillant Advance installer last week, which allows me to give two additional years warranty. I haven't been on any of their courses and haven't fitted a single Vaillant boiler since I went self employed 7 years ago. All I did to get this accreditation was spend two minutes filling in a form on their website

 

[DP]

Is a "Boiler repair engineer" a different trade than a "Gas Installer"? Is there a different name for the person who installs the actual central heating eg "Heating engineer"?

A boiler repairer needs to understand how boilers work to then be able to locate and fix a defect. Having said that, it is still a difficult task as sometimes this knowledge plus ability to work with test equipment, understand and work with electricity, electronics, controls, mechanical components, water and gas often is a spanner in the works that is fault finding.

Fitting a boiler can be done by a competent diyer ONLY you need to have proven competency as laid down by Gas Safety Regulations

 

[muggles]

Is a "Boiler repair engineer" a different trade than a "Gas Installer"? Is there a different name for the person who installs the actual central heating eg "Heating engineer"?

It's essentially the same job with the same basic qualifications, just different people choose to do different parts of it. Some like to do the reactive work, focussing on breakdown repair and filing their spare time with servicing and landlords certificates. They may or may not fit boilers. Some boiler installers won't do anything other than fit boilers, IE they don't get involved with sizing or replacing radiators or radiator valves. People calling themselves heating engineers will generally offer a more complete service, but there are no additional formal qualifications so quality will vary. What you need is someone who understands how condensing boilers actually work, how to do proper heat loss calculations and how to size hear emitters and pipework correctly, as well as how to set up a boiler to be efficient on the system it is fitted to. The starting point for that of course is to have a boiler fitted which is actually capable of being set up correctly in the first place! Something like the OP's WB Junior can never be set up properly because the system pump can't be adjusted to match the required system load.

 

[teaboyjim]

This seems to be a very broad topic with lots of areas that require different types of knowledge.

 

[CBW]

A boiler repairer needs to understand how boilers work to then be able to locate and fix a defect

Thanks, that’s where I’m going wrong

 

[teaboyjim]

Thanks, that’s where I’m going wrong

hahaha

 

[DP]

Thanks, that’s where I’m going wrong

Come, come Chris. I hold my hat to likes of you when it comes to boiler repairs.

 

[Blue_Cat_DIY]

The above sentiments are what I fundamentally thought straight away. These are quite possibly "crooks" where they've actually fabricated a problem/possibly lied in order to get pecuniary advantage (Financial advantage) which is a crime. Well done for coming to DIYnot.com - You may well have saved yourself over £1,000 - I love it when knowledge translates into something so practical and tangible as a financial saving. I wonder how much collectively this community saves people every year

Yes I am really glad that I found this forum, so grateful for everyones replies and insight into my boiler repair problem - and the fact that it is helping me (and other customers reading this in future) to stop being ripped off

Firstly I would get a diagnosis of the repair before contemplating a new boiler. If you want one fair enough, but if you’re happy with your current one, get it repaired. WB also do a fixed price repair, which if it’s the manifold block then they’ll be able to sort it out without jibber jabber about disturbance of old joints, however could prove expensive if it’s the flow adapter.

I was happy with my current WB boiler to be honest; generally it does not cause me any issues and seems to run well. I suppose as it's getting older (it's now 13 years old) I have been thinking "Is this going to pack-up on me soon?". When it developed this leak, I did fear the worst, but I did also hope that it could be repaired and that I might get another year or so out of it. It was only after this engineer gave me the "hard sell" about buying a brand new boiler, and telling me that my current one was basically "too difficult to repair" and "other things will more than likely start to go wrong with it" and that "there is evidence of other leaks" that I thought "damn - looks like I'll have to buy a brand new boiler now then, rather than waste almost £600 repairing this one, for it to go kaput shortly afterwards".

I've had a look at the WB fixed price repair service - £298 incl. VAT. I'd happily pay that if it fixed my boiler. I'd like to think I could trust them more, as they would send out a WB engineer who is actually employed by WB? But...are they also "sales people" as well as engineers, I wonder? - do they too try and push you into getting a brand new boiler, when perhaps you don't really need one yet? Gosh it's so hard to know who to trust. If the WB engineer comes out and says that the boiler is beyond economical repair, then that's another £298 down the drain. Or the quote to repair could exceed £298, and again, I could get it repaired and then another fault may develop a few months later... If only we all had crystal balls?!?!

It's really hard to know what to do for the best:

1/ Try and get it repaired (but done by WB themselves, as I don't know any local gas engineers I can trust to do the job properly and not rip me off).

OR

2/ Bite the bullet and get a brand new boiler.

I'm in Walsall and just for you to compare I used the company BOXT and needed a boiler more or less immediately.
My quote for swapping out a combi with all the flue stuff etc and a WB 30i was £2400 including a Google nest thermostat. If I could have waited a few weeks I could have had it done for a couple of hundred less. The online quote is free and it will at least give you another number to throw back at them. Personally I'm very happy with Boxt and there was also a 10 year warranty.
I think it sounds like the guy had no intention of fixing your boiler and just wanted to put you a new one in.

Thank you for this. I did check out BOXT last night, as well as few other companies - they ALL come in lower than the £3k quoted to me from that dodgy engineer! There was one website though - I think it might have been WarmZilla? And it said after the quote that I "may be charged extra if scaffolding is required for the flue". Hmm - I wonder how likely that is, and what kind of cost that would be? My house is semi-detached, and the existing flue comes out of the pitched roof, I think about halfway up it by the looks of it.

Why take the parts away? Could they be exaggerating the fault in the first place. Did they take the faulty parts away or did they just take the "new" replacement parts away again?

No faulty parts were taken away - only the new parts were taken away with them.

Virtually every Worcester is repairable going back 25 years...they carry parts for a long time and the Greenstar Juniors have been around since 2005/5 almost unchanged in design.
It's only a main heat exchanger failure that would write off the boiler although Worcester may even replace that on a fixed price deal.
It's so common for gas installers to masquerade as repair engineers when their sole intention is to get a new boiler sale, this underhand practice is supported by the manufacturers who both reward
and pressure their installer base with extra incentives upon reaching targets.

^ This is so scary. Consumers must be constantly being ripped off!

 

[boolie]

Fitting a boiler can be done by a competent diyer ONLY you need to have proven competency as laid down by Gas Safety Regulations

Oh I never knew that, can you explain more?.. for instance I know I can make a gas tight seal, and consider myself a competent DIY-er (especially pipework and soldering), would I qualify?