Woman and Sex, means biological sex.

[Highway Man]

IMO there wouldn’t be too much of a problem with a man identifying as a woman being allowed into women’s spaces if he genuinely wants to live as a woman and doesn’t cause any harm. The problem is with men doing it falsely, eg criminals who do it to get into a women’s prison as they assume it will be an easier gig, or getting into other women’s spaces for sexual reasons. To prevent that would justify quite a lot of inconvenience for genuine transsexuals. They know who to blame.

That's the problem though, you just don't know if they are genuine or not. Like vicars, I always wonder what percentage of them are actually in it for the job and are actually non believers.

 

[Justin Passing]

I'm not trolling on about anything - just trying to shut down the argument used by transphobic people that their position of denial is based on sex being binary.

Yes, you are.
We all know already SHUT UP.
Intersex is definable only in terms of something going wrong - many are infertile.

 

[fixitflav]

I think you might be using a different definition of "spectrum" to me.

I've been using it to mean more than just 3 alternatives, but if you want to say that as soon as you have 3 then you've got a spectrum, then where's the logic that says there's no spectrum as soon as you have 2?

Are you saying that if a baby pops out with normal genitalia, you won't accept that it's M or F? Not sure how you'd judge it, but if you decided it was 90% M, 10% F (or whatever) isn't that putting it on a spectrum?

 

[blup]

IMO there wouldn’t be too much of a problem with a man identifying as a woman being allowed into women’s spaces if he genuinely wants to live as a woman and doesn’t cause any harm. The problem is with men doing it falsely, eg criminals who do it to get into a women’s prison as they assume it will be an easier gig, or getting into other women’s spaces for sexual reasons. To prevent that would justify quite a lot of inconvenience for genuine transsexuals. They know who to blame.

The equality act creates a presumption against gender discrimination but then goes on to allow all sorts of exceptions e.g. a woman of faith who objects to mixed swimming sessions justifies separate sessions. Or a women only refuge where the presence of trans men might be harmful. But the guidance goes on to say refusing a trans woman breast cancer screening is discriminatory. That’s just mad and shows how the legislation promises something it then removes while creating confusion and unfairness (if you are a female prisoner who had been attacked)

 

[fixitflav]

That's the problem though, you just don't know if they are genuine or not. Like vicars, I always wonder what percentage of them are actually in it for the job and are actually non believers.

I accept that, and the recent ruling is welcome

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Trans women are keen to participate in female sports. I wonder how many trans men are keen to participate in male sports ...

 

[denso13]

Well, if potentially needing to use drugs and surgery to change a person's hormones and physical characteristics to make them fit into a category defined by hormones and physical appearance doesn't confirm to you that it isn't a simple binary system, nothing will.

It's binary when they are born. I've got no issues with someone acting differently if they want to, when they are able/want to. No issues whatsoever.

 

[morqthana]

IMO there wouldn’t be too much of a problem with a man identifying as a woman being allowed into women’s spaces if he genuinely wants to live as a woman and doesn’t cause any harm. The problem is with men doing it falsely, eg criminals who do it to get into a women’s prison as they assume it will be an easier gig, or getting into other women’s spaces for sexual reasons. To prevent that would justify quite a lot of inconvenience for genuine transsexuals. They know who to blame.

I guess the people to blame are those imposing the inconvenience. Why are they doing it? Are their fears of people falsely claiming to be trans for ulterior motives justified? How much of a problem is it? Are the decisions being made rationally, or in order to pander to a bigots, and the newspapers they read, for vote-winning purposes? Are people campaigning for restrictions doing so because they just don't understand the topic and want to pretend it doesn't exist so it won't trouble their minds? Or because their newspaper has told them they must fear trans people?

We need to be very careful about oppressing people just because a minority of them are bad. In the southern USA one of the grounds they used to justify segregation was that black men would rape white women if they were allowed to share spaces.

Do we stop men from becoming priests, or scout leaders, because some join the priesthood or the scouting movement because they are paedophiles?

In my first post in this topic I wrote

There are genuine and justified concerns about how to deal with trans people in the context of same-sex spaces such as prisons, hospital wards, domestic violence refuges, and how to ensure fairness in sport, for example, but that those concerns can’t be addressed by pretending that there are no trans people.

 

[morqthana]

Are you saying that if a baby pops out with normal genitalia, you won't accept that it's M or F?

Why on earth do you think I might be saying that?

How do you get from me saying "Not everybody falls into one of two neat categories" to thinking I'm saying that I won't accept that anybody does?

Not sure how you'd judge it, but if you decided it was 90% M, 10% F (or whatever) isn't that putting it on a spectrum?

You can show, can you, where I have said that sex exists on a spectrum?

 

[morqthana]

It's binary when they are born.

You didn't actually read that document you posted, did you.

Or if you did, you didn't take on board what it said.

 

[Koolpc]

Look at any pride rally to see that trans is an illness. Just watch them in the rally. How sick their acts are. Its all in the head. Its not normal at all::

 

[fixitflav]

Are their fears of people falsely claiming to be trans for ulterior motives justified? How much of a problem is it?

Well, it was a problem for some nurses, in the north-east I think it was, who had a female-identifying man in their changing room, who had a girlfriend and they were trying for a baby! He leered at them and asked when they were going to get undressed. They complained to their union man and he said it wasn't a problem, they must live with it. They finished up getting changed in a store cupboard.

 

[Highway Man]

What I don't like are haters and bigots trying to justify their hostility to transgender people on the basis that there is a biological fact that there are only 2 sexes.

I don't think you really have any argument here, there are really only two sexes that you are born with (normally) that is male and female, I havent seen any other sex that anybody has been recorded having from birth? Possibly aliens may have more than two sexes from birth or even possibly choose their sex, who knows. Are you a trans person?

 

[denso13]

You didn't actually read that document you posted, did you.

Or if you did, you didn't take on board what it said.

Yes, I did actually. It may take a few days, but it's boy or girl.

 

[morqthana]

The equality act creates a presumption against gender discrimination but then goes on to allow all sorts of exceptions e.g. a woman of faith who objects to mixed swimming sessions justifies separate sessions.

Irrespective of anything to do with trans rights that should never be allowed. We do not live in a theocracy.

But the guidance goes on to say refusing a trans woman breast cancer screening is discriminatory. That’s just mad

Is it though?

1) Men do get, and die from, breast cancer. Rare it may be, but it claims the lives of 85 men annually in the UK.

2) I'm not ascribing transgenderism to any hormonal/genetic causes, but is it not possible? Is it not possible that hormone treatments for men transitioning to women could increase the risk of getting breast cancer? I don't know, but I can see how it could be the case.

3) What medical expertise do you have which qualifies you to say it's mad?

and shows how the legislation promises something it then removes while creating confusion and unfairness (if you are a female prisoner who had been attacked)

If fairness was the only criterion, then we'd need to compare the prevalence of trans women prisoners attacking cis prisoners with that of trans women in male prisons being attacked.

All prisons are violent places, they contain a lot of violent people. I expect there's violence in women's prisons.

Are the numbers of trans prisoners seeking to be held in a different sex prison too high for proper risk assessments to be done? If someone is violent before they announce that they are trans I would have thought that they'd be just as violent afterwards.

There are genuine and justified concerns about how to deal with trans people in the context of same-sex spaces such as prisons,

IMO a male prisoner simply declaring that he now identifies as a woman is nowhere near enough.