Dawn Butler exposed

[Brigadier]

One of our apprentices 19 at the time

He had a new van

He was always getting stopped by plod on a regular basis in particular in the evening

Dunno what he or we could blame it on

He is not black or Asian so the race card cannot be played

Hmmmm perhaps Himagin could come up with something

They might have thought he might have been black.......

There you go, bingo! Them rozzers are racist barstewards, because they can't prove they're not.

 

[Trazor]

She absolutely loved the fact that she was stopped, she would have been more upset if they hadn't stopped her.

 

[Ihavenojob]

Are you suggesting that she was driving round for hours,

SHE WASN'T DRIVING.

 

[transam]

They might have thought he might have been black.......

There you go, bingo! Them rozzers are racist barstewards, because they can't prove they're not.

Good point
they must have thought he was black Tis the only logical explanation

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Really?


You really are like a dog with two doodahs, when it comes to race threads

You're doing your typical resorting to ad hominem attacks rather than discussing the issue.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I take it that you think the police should never break into a house just in case the intel. is wrong.

Your take on what I think is wrong.
You are doing your usual thing, resorting to ad absurdum.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

One of our apprentices 19 at the time

He had a new van

He was always getting stopped by plod on a regular basis in particular in the evening

Dunno what he or we could blame it on

He is not black or Asian so the race card cannot be played

Hmmmm perhaps Himagin could come up with something

Maybe he only looked about 16?
His rear lights weren't working?
His stop lights were always on?
His number plate was upside down?
He had a notice in the back window, saying, "Police, please stop this vehicle if driven after 6.00pm"?

Any one of those?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

As usual, it's the victim's fault for being stopped by the police for no reason, on a typical stop and search, which happens disproportionately to black people.
Rather than address the real issue, let's blame the black people for the behaviour and institutional racism of the police.
Then we can all have a good laugh about it.

 

[Lower]

As usual, it's the victim's fault for being stopped by the police for no reason, on a typical stop and search, which happens disproportionately to black people.
Rather than address the real issue, let's blame the black people for the behaviour and institutional racism of the police.
Then we can all have a good laugh about it.

Why are you so convinced of the Police's guilt and that it is entirely their fault? You appear to be completely ignoring the fact that there is a specific problem with black drug and gang related crime. How do you suggest they approach people who look suspicious and happen to be black, bearing in mind that because there is a specific black crime problem, that means there will be some black criminals?

What do you suggest the police do when they suspect someone who actually is guilty of something who then plays the race card to try and avoid legitimate detention?

 

[ellal]

How do you suggest they approach people who look suspicious and happen to be black, bearing in mind that because there is a specific black crime problem, that means there will be some black criminals?

But therein lies the problem...

Institutional racism means that by default plod treats black people as suspicious simply because they are in possession of a black skin and they couldn't possibly be able to afford a nice motor 'legitimately'...

There are plenty of crooks in the 'square mile', but you don't see plod targeting those white folks with an offensively expensive suit!

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Why are you so convinced of the Police's guilt? You appear to be completely ignoring the fact that there is a specific problem with black drug and gang related crime.

Simple, investigations and reports indicate that that is the real problem. Addressing the symptoms without addressing the real cause exacerbates the symptoms. It's like pouring petrol on the flames. For sure, you can put out fires with explosives, but at what cost, in human and financial terms.
Those same investigations and reports indicate that BAME people suffer structural inequality, poverty, poor housing, reduced opportunities, discrimination, and racism, and that sort of society creates criminals. How can it not? If you alienate a whole section of society, what do you expect?
Those victims of society are invariably the ones who suffer the most in terms of poverty and from discrimination, especially from the very institutions set up to protect and serve us.
Without addressing the real source of the problem, and instead only addressing the symptoms, it is a downward spiral.

I'd hazard a guess that if we go back 50, 60, 70 years, especially in London, the majority of criminals were white, career type criminals. including violent crimes.
I suspect that the amount of crime may have diminished since then, but the type of crime has changed. Society has influenced the type of crime that is now perceived as the most prominent. I say society has influenced the perception, because knife crime may not be the most prominent or prevalent, but regular media attention has created that perception.
Additionally, as the inequality, poverty and discrimination in society creates criminals, crime and criminals always find ways to exploit the weaknesses of, and in society, be it drugs, greed, corruption, hate, division, etc.

I'd also hazard a guess that the majority of crime now is so-called 'victimless' crime. Such crime (excluding shop lifting) is probably not motivated by poverty, but by greed and corruption. But because it is more sophisticated, and the investigations more prolonged, and more international, it is less 'news worthy' to certain tabloids.

Finally, yes of course we should seek to eliminate such violent crime as knife crime, we owe it to the many parents of murdered children.
But let us not concentrate on the symptom without addressing the real cause. And also recognise that some poorly executed attempts at eradicating knife crime may exacerbate the symptom.

 

[Lower]

But therein lies the problem...

Institutional racism means that by default plod treats black people as suspicious simply because they are in possession of a black skin and they couldn't possibly be able to afford a nice motor 'legitimately'...

There are plenty of crooks in the 'square mile', but you don't see plod targeting those white folks with an offensively expensive suit!

I understand the institutional racism bit, but when you have a specific black crime problem, how do you propose the police address it? Stop and search combined with stiff sentences for carrying a knife or an offensive weapon are a proven deterrent. But how do the police use this tool when carrying a knife is an significant problem in some areas of london that happen to be predominantly black communities?

 

[Lower]

Simple, investigations and reports indicate that that is the real problem. Addressing the symptoms without addressing the real cause exacerbates the symptoms. It's like pouring petrol on the flames. For sure, you can put out fires with explosives, but at what cost, in human and financial terms.
Those same investigations and reports indicate that BAME people suffer structural inequality, poverty, poor housing, reduced opportunities, discrimination, and racism, and that sort of society creates criminals. How can it not? If you alienate a whole section of society, what do you expect?
Those victims of society are invariably the ones who suffer the most in terms of poverty and from discrimination, especially from the very institutions set up to protect and serve us.
Without addressing the real source of the problem, and instead only addressing the symptoms, it is a downward spiral.

I'd hazard a guess that if we go back 50, 60, 70 years, especially in London, the majority of criminals were white, career type criminals. including violent crimes.
I suspect that the amount of crime may have diminished since then, but the type of crime has changed. Society has influenced the type of crime that is now perceived as the most prominent. I say society has influenced the perception, because knife crime may not be the most prominent or prevalent, but regular media attention has created that perception.
Additionally, as the inequality, poverty and discrimination in society creates criminals, crime and criminals always find ways to exploit the weaknesses of, and in society, be it drugs, greed, corruption, hate, division, etc.

I'd also hazard a guess that the majority of crime now is so-called 'victimless' crime. Such crime (excluding shop lifting) is probably not motivated by poverty, but by greed and corruption. But because it is more sophisticated, and the investigations more prolonged, and more international, it is less 'news worthy' to certain tabloids.

Finally, yes of course we should seek to eliminate such violent crime as knife crime, we owe it to the many parents of murdered children.
But let us not concentrate on the symptom without addressing the real cause. And also recognise that some poorly executed attempts at eradicating knife crime may exacerbate the symptom.

But going back to my original question, how do you propose that the police apply stop and search in a high crime area that happens to be a predominantly black community when they know that the race card will get played as they likes of Dawn Butler seem to be trying to turn race into a get out of jail free card?

 

[JohnD]

But going back to my original question, how do you propose that the police apply stop and search in a high crime area that happens to be a predominantly black community when they know that the race card will get played as they likes of Dawn Butler seem to be trying to turn race into a get out of jail free card?

Is the answer "stop black people at eight times the rate you stop white people?"

Is the answer "handcuff black people but not white people?"

Is the answer "stop cars with black people in because black people look suspicious?"

Is the answer "automatically treat white people with courtesy and respect, and automatically treat black people with contempt and hostility?"

Because those answers don't seem to be working.

 

[Lower]

Is the answer "stop black people at eight times the rate you stop white people?"

Is the answer "handcuff black people but not white people?"

Is the answer "stop cars with black people in because black people look suspicious?"

Is the answer "automatically treat white people with courtesy and respect, and automatically treat black people with contempt and hostility?"

Because those answers don't seem to be working.

So how do you propose to answer my question?