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Dawn Butler exposed

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by gasbanni, 12 Aug 2020.

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  1. securespark

    securespark

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    You sound like the cops. They use this line all the time.
    Some here think I am anti-police. I'm not at all, provided they are doing their job properly and not abusing their powers.
    You see, people have rights and freedoms. One of those freedoms is to be able to go out when you want and do (lawfully) what you like. So when police start demanding your ID because you have a camera or because you are out for a walk in the early hours, I have serious reservations. Suspicion is not an excuse to demand ID. To say "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about" is meaningless. First of all you do not have to engage in conversation with the police, although they will voice their opinion that it is "strange" if you don't and will often move on to the "Are you alright?" tack, suggesting that you might be mentally ill. Second, they only have the right to your ID if they suspect you of a crime. You should not be pressured into giving your ID by that stupid statement. If your ID is given, it will stay on their system and if that person is stopped again, the police will use the "you are known to police" line, giving them (in their eyes) more of a reason to be interested in you.
     
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  3. securespark

    securespark

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    You sound like the cops. They use this line all the time.
    Some here think I am anti-police. I'm not at all, provided they are doing their job properly and not abusing their powers.
    You see, people have rights and freedoms. One of those freedoms is to be able to go out when you want and do (lawfully) what you like. So when police start demanding your ID because you have a camera or because you are out for a walk in the early hours, I have serious reservations. Suspicion is not an excuse to demand ID. To say "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about" is meaningless. First of all you do not have to engage in conversation with the police, although they will voice their opinion that it is "strange" if you don't and will often move on to the "Are you alright?" tack, suggesting that you might be mentally ill. Second, they only have the right to your ID if they suspect you of a crime. You should not be pressured into giving your ID by that stupid statement. If your ID is given, it will stay on their system and if that person is stopped again, the police will use the "you are known to police" line, giving them (in their eyes) more of a reason to be interested in you.
     
  4. martin hill

    martin hill

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    We see a lot of people posting on youtube extra about the police and quote all the "people have rights and freedoms" . Yes we do have officers who go on a power trip but we also have lots of officers who are very professional too.

    If a officer walks up to me and asks where i going or been i'd politely reply with the answer. If he asked for I.D i'd politely show him. This short and easy conversation will be over in a minute.

    Where is the infringement on my human rights and freedom ? I have no issue with the police asking for I.D. The stop maybe due to an increased crime rate in the area or maybe something had happened close by recently.

    All this "pressured into" and " Lawfully" talk etc just makes their job harder as people start to waste a limited number of officers time. Have you seen that due to cuts the amount of officers having to respond dangerous incidents single manned. Lots of jobs out there you can't do tasks alone due to H & S regs. but the police are still expected too.
     
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  5. johnny2007

    johnny2007

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    I come from a country where it's compulsory to carry an ID, have an address, be known to authorities and where police can stop you for no reason whatsoever.
    In other words you can't be a walking ghost, if they want to speak to you for any reason they know who you are and where you live and they can stop you on the street anytime.
    Recently, anyone who renewed any ID (passport or identity card) has given fingerprints to the government database; I think it's the same here in UK now.
    So many crimes have been solved by this.
    Many claim that it is a violation of civil liberties, including me to a certain extent, but when you hear about children being abducted or slaughtered, you need to start thinking about chaining the criminals.
    So I stand by what I said: if you haven't done anything wrong there's nothing to hide.
    I am known to the police for speeding and reporting a couple of crimes in the past, that doesn't make me a criminal.
    It only means that at one point I was in contact with the police and gave my details.
    I need to highlight that when you report a crime or even make a simple accident report, your details go on the database.
    So if you're stopped and they punch your details in their system, you'll be there.
    Nothing wrong with that.
    Same as when you register your details on the electoral register, police have full access to that.
    Then of course if you want to remain completely anonymous, don't buy a vehicle, don't register on electoral roll or doctor, etc.
    In other words, you need to live in hiding.
    Who does that?
    Criminals AND a very small minority of people who fear their information will be misused.
     
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  6. Bobby Dazzler

    Bobby Dazzler

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    'If only' comes to mind.
    If only the government, the police and other institutions had implemented the many recommendations of previous investigations and reports.
    If only the inequality, discrimination, racism had not appeared in the first place.
    But we are where we are, it is what it is.
    The government and other institutions can still implement the many recommendations.
    They can introduce penalties for institutions not complying. Only today there was an issue at Cardiff Uni. I can't remember if it was 18 or so black students in the whole of the uni, or about that number on one course. But obviously, the Uni dealt with the issue in a rather shoddy way.

    I think Cressida Dick's approach is not helpful, suggesting that institutional racism is not an appropriate label. What label would she like to allocate?
    But let's not talk about the label, let's talk about the issue.
    In addition, many would consider that she was protected by the institution in the Charles de Menezes incident. it's only natural that those people will see her as protecting that same institution.
    Seven mistakes that cost De Menezes his life
    *Cressida Dick

    The Gold Commander on the day of the operation, and therefore ultimately in charge, Ms Dick has since been promoted to Deputy Assistant Commissioner, a decision which the De Menezes family described as a "slap in the face" for them


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...es-that-cost-de-menezes-his-life-1064466.html
    I've mentioned 'dominant culture' many times.
    There is undoubtedly a dominant culture within the Met, possibly within the police in general, maybe within the community at large, maybe emanating from the government (successive governments, not just the current one).
    To overcome such a dominant culture requires ruthless management initially. You can't pussy foot about changing a dominant culture. Only when the tide has been turned can you afford to let your foot of the issue. But you also need measures in place to ensure such a dominant culture cannot resurface.

    It is policing by consent, and when you no longer have that consent, or do not have the consent of a large group in society, then things must change, otherwise the alternatives are too serious to contemplate.

     
    Last edited: 19 Aug 2020
  7. Lower

    Lower

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    With respect, you're not answering the question.
     
  8. JohnD

    JohnD

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    that's good.

    if you are a victim of institutional racism, will this encourage you to trust and befriend the offending institution?
     
  9. Bobby Dazzler

    Bobby Dazzler

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    It is my answer. If it's not the answer you want, or do not like, or will not accept, I can't help that.

    As I've said so many times, you can't address the symptoms without addressing the disease.
    To try to do so, is merely exacerbating the symptoms.

    ps. I think you did well to read, comprehend and dissect my answer in five minutes.
     
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  11. martin hill

    martin hill

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    A lot of mistakes were made that day resulting in the death of an innocent man but people make it sound like we shoot people every week and we don't. Maybe if stop and search wasn't such a touchy subject for the police he could of been stopped at his flat and asked of I.D and searched without being called racist. We will never know. We do need to look at how the police act but we also need to stop it being that the police end up being helpless to do anything which is going to be a fine line.
     
  12. Lower

    Lower

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    There in lies the rub. You're happy to shout from the rafters that there is a problem with institutional racism, but you have no practical answers to how to deal the reality of the day to day crime that the police are having to deal with.

    For me, the reality is that police are going to have to reply on an element of profiling unless someone can come up with a more effective way of tracking and preventing crime.

    PS i'm a quick reader.
     
  13. Brigadier

    Brigadier

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    There is no "discussing the issue" on your part : any reply is just another opportunity for you to grandstand.
     
  14. Bobby Dazzler

    Bobby Dazzler

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    If you look at the article, you'll see that several, not just one, opportunity were missed to stop Charles de Menezes.
    If you think that not stopping and searching and just resorting to deadly force is preferable.....Welcome to USA.
    Bearing in mind we are not talking about stopping due to suspicions of carrying a weapon, we are talking about a potential suspect carrying a bomb.
    So let's not stop him from boarding public transport, let's wait until he has boarded, three times, then shoot him dead, under suspicious circumstances.

    Not implementing the many recommendations, and putting in charge someone who is considered incompetent is perhaps not the best start.
     
  15. Bobby Dazzler

    Bobby Dazzler

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    If the public see the real cause being addressed, they are more likely to accept the treatment of the symptoms.
    An ideal approach to deal with the symptoms is through community action, but that avenue has been defunded.

    Then the situation will deteriorate, as more high profile people are stopped and the incident publicised, which will initiate another round of blame and counter-blame. This doesn't really solve the problem of inequality, poverty, discrimination, etc. It serves to reinforce it.
     
  16. Bobby Dazzler

    Bobby Dazzler

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    As you have so obviously decided, so you make no attempt.

    If that's what you think, and you obviously do, why keep giving me the opportunity?
     
  17. mitch66

    mitch66

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    Shes great fun too. Thinks 90% of giraffes are gay, babies are born with no gender. Some of her interviews on youtube are absolutely hilarious.
     
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