How much energy can YOU save?

[Gasguru]

Glad to see some of the heating guys are spilling the beans on this racket.


Our country has the largest boiler market in the world; couple that with our excessive energy costs (compared to the rest of Europe) and that makes us a target for all those companies pushing so called green and environmentally friendly technology.

They are prepared to make misleading and wild claims on their efficiencies, reliability etc.

Do not be fooled.

For instance, every brochure I have read on heat pumps fails to mention the environmental impact of burning fossil fuels to generate the electricity they run on. Some less biased publications suggest you buy your electricity from "green" sources (at a higher price). None of these brochures give a realistic annual average efficiency. They always give a best case scenario.

Another example, condensing boiler manufacturers routinely print efficiencies of well over 100% in an effort to try and convince the public how they will save a fortune on their gas bills. The government (in a moment of unusual intelligence) decided to try and devise a model of typical usage. Sedbuk as its known, although not perfect and having several misgivings, does enable you to compare different makes/models. Typical savings are likely to be 10-15% with the latest boilers (assuming the rest of the heating system is up to spec). Had this Sedbuk rating not been devised we would have seen manufacturers claiming savings of perhaps 30% or more.

This process of seasonal efficiencies modeling must to be applied to all technologies, until this occurs wildly exaggerated claims will continue to be made. Furthermore there is very little data available for the true life cycle cost/environmental impact of a particular technology. Anyone care to offer any figures for the energy expended manufacturing solar panels? How about the maintenance cost - ie pumps, control board, antifreeze, tubes. I don't see manufacturers publishing this information in their sales literature.

Do your research thoroughly before being hoodwinked into this nonsense. With my day to day dealings with the public I would expect most to be able to save 30% on their energy bills by prudent and sensible living without suffering any particular hardship.

Personnally I don't see any problem with our current energy prices, I've always thought we have been paying way too little for such a finite resource. I bet most households still pay far more for their phone bills, sky package etc.

Believe me I'm not against energy saving products - its just that we are going about it the wrong way. How about running new housing estates off a central combined heat and power plant. This is routine in other countries. Get maximum energy from the gas. What sense is there in equiping each property with their own boiler (often poorly installed and then unlikely to be maintained).


As for no hope Cameron his windmill will be lucky to offset the energy used in the construction of his house extension.

 

[2scoops0406]

For instance, every brochure I have read on heat pumps fails to mention the environmental impact of burning fossil fuels to generate the electricity they run on.

This site seems to indicate the amount of electricity required to run a geothermal heatpump, I have no idea if it is accurate though.

 

[Gasguru]

Had a quick look - although it mentions seasonal performance there is a distinct absence of any real life figures.

It also fails to mention the major influence on performance is whether the system is connected to an underfloor heating system (more efficient) or to a traditional exisiting radiator system (least efficient since suplementary additonal electric heating input is required).

For once it does mention sourcing your electricity from green suppliers - but how many users having paid maybe £10,000 for the sytem will fork out for even more expensive electricity?

 

[Agile]

It always amazes me how people will swallow the sales hype without looking at the basics!

A power station burns fossil fuels coil, oil or gas. Thats nearly all of our power now in the UK as we are running down the nuclear contribution.

Burn 10 kW of gas in a power station and you get 3.3 kW of electric power. Lose 2.2% in distribution and that leaves 3.2 kW.

Get an expensive heat pump and put in 3.2 kW and you get out about 12.9 kW of low grade heat at about 30 C. That has to be supplemented to get hot water or enough heat in clod weather.

So you burn 10 kW of fossil fuel and get 12.9 kW of heat ! Yes that is a small advantage over just burning the fossil fuel and getting 9 kW. Actually a 43% advantage before you use traditional methods to top it up.

But for a massive outlay its a very poor financial return. Thick loft insulation, cavity wall, floor and wall insulation would save mor energy and give a better return on the cost.

Not a good solution!

Tony

 

[oilman]

.................How about running new housing estates off a central combined heat and power plant. This is routine in other countries. Get maximum energy from the gas. What sense is there in equiping each property with their own boiler (often poorly installed and then unlikely to be maintained).


..................

A few miles away a coal powered station was replaced by a gas one. this was no more than 1/2 mile from existing housing, a prime choice for local heating. Even better, development land was even nearer, 1/4 mile away, and on a flood plain (so clever eh?). Typical of the blinkered thinking in this country, all the excess heat is dumped via the cooling towers.

 

[2scoops0406]

Had a quick look - although it mentions seasonal performance there is a distinct absence of any real life figures.

It also fails to mention the major influence on performance is whether the system is connected to an underfloor heating system (more efficient) or to a traditional exisiting radiator system (least efficient since suplementary additonal electric heating input is required).

For once it does mention sourcing your electricity from green suppliers - but how many users having paid maybe £10,000 for the sytem will fork out for even more expensive electricity?

From what I read on another site, you really need to connect a heat pumps output to an underfloor heating system as these operate at lower temps than a conventional rad system. So as I said it's interesting stuff, but I reckon you'd have to research thoroughly to see what if any the real savings were. I suppose a lot depends upon the geology of where you live. For instance in Iceland pretty much all houses are heated by geothermal, but then it is volcanically active!

 

[Steve]

.................How about running new housing estates off a central combined heat and power plant. This is routine in other countries. Get maximum energy from the gas. What sense is there in equiping each property with their own boiler (often poorly installed and then unlikely to be maintained).


..................

A few miles away a coal powered station was replaced by a gas one. this was no more than 1/2 mile from existing housing, a prime choice for local heating. Even better, development land was even nearer, 1/4 mile away, and on a flood plain (so clever eh?). Typical of the blinkered thinking in this country, all the excess heat is dumped via the cooling towers.

Its because there's about 20 companies involved in the power stn, distribution, getting other companies on board, all would have to agree, invest money etc.

Similar situation as the hole in the road. Phone company dig it up one week, fill it in. 2 days later, gas board come and dig the same spot again. No communication or publishing of events.

 

[Gasguru]

Went to this http://www.energy-expo.info/page.cfm?requestTimeout=1000 yesterday to get the low down (and to confirm my beliefs about much of the"green" energy products.

By and large most of the companies I spoke to were unwilling or simply coulnd't tell me the real savings and the true "greeness" of their products.

Everything was described as could save.... or likely to save.....with no true real case scenarios.

Many of the warranties offered were woefully short. When prompted by further technical probing a few companies did admit their products would only save energy under very specific setups.

For instance one heat pump manufacturer admitted that to make a worthwhile saving the unit must be coupled to an underfloor heating system with at least twice the amount of pipework as normal. This is to ensure the output temperature can be as low as possible to heat the house and keep the co-efficient of performance high. And to run as a true green energy source the homeowner must buy their electricity from a green energy supplier (at higher cost of course).

There were many solar heating systems on display. From the basic flat plate system to the many variations of the evacuated tube types. Much of the more "efficient" collectors had many more potential failure points than the simpler flat plate designs. I came away with the view that they are all trying to out do each other in order to get the highest efficiency figures in their brochures with long term reliability a poor second.

 

[Pensdown]

.................How about running new housing estates off a central combined heat and power plant. This is routine in other countries. Get maximum energy from the gas. What sense is there in equiping each property with their own boiler (often poorly installed and then unlikely to be maintained).


..................

A few miles away a coal powered station was replaced by a gas one. this was no more than 1/2 mile from existing housing, a prime choice for local heating. Even better, development land was even nearer, 1/4 mile away, and on a flood plain (so clever eh?). Typical of the blinkered thinking in this country, all the excess heat is dumped via the cooling towers.

Its because there's about 20 companies involved in the power stn, distribution, getting other companies on board, all would have to agree, invest money etc.

Similar situation as the hole in the road. Phone company dig it up one week, fill it in. 2 days later, gas board come and dig the same spot again. No communication or publishing of events.

Your right. Most of Battersea was heated from the old power station but that would never happen now because short sighted shareholders call the shots.

As for digging up roads, that's down to local councils and the way they coordinate wayleaves which to be honest is not easy.

 

[jeds]

A house about a hundred yards or so down the road from me had one for a while. The dull droning noise was quite audible at night (I like to have my window open) and it was just starting to get on my nerves. Anyway, the nearby neighbours kicked up a fuss and the council made the guy take it down.

So what will it be like with one on every roof I wonder?