Brexit: the 'we just need to get on with it' narrative

[Notch7]

The argument for leaving the EU seems to have moved from arguing for perceived benefits to:

Arguing:
Parliament are thwarting democracy, they are ignoring the will of the people.

'We just need to get on with it'

If people are fed up with thinking about it, they should ask for revoking A50.

The other argument is 'a second referendum is thwarting democracy' - I dont understand that argument, what could be more democratic than getting another chance to vote?

 

[Mottie]

Both my kids voted to remain and both said they’d now vote to leave if there was another referendum based solely on the behaviour of the EU and the squealing from the losing remainers. They accepted that a majority is the democratic way. I see one Labour knob on the telly this morning is calling for an 80% majority if there is another referendum. Seems like a simple majority is meaningless for remainers these days.

 

[transam]

What ever

Then parliament need to vote for some thing they can all agree on

The EUs deal
Norway deal
Another referendum
Call the entire thing off
No deal
Ect ect

Best advised all of these bone eads pull there fingers out and agree to some thing

 

[Notch7]

Both my kids voted to remain and both said they’d now vote to leave if there was another referendum based solely on the behaviour of the EU and the squealing from the losing remainers. They accepted that a majority is the democratic way. I see one Labour knob on the telly this morning is calling for an 80% majority if there is another referendum. Seems like a simple majority is meaningless for remainers these days.

The problem is that Brexit cant be delivered.

People complain TM has been rubbish but what other options for a deal were available.

I dont think the EU have behaved very well, but has the UK -this is a precedent, nobody has tried to leave the EU before, certainly not one of its key members.

The big problem I see at the moment is that those that voted leave, arent interested in coming up with what they want or how to resolve the issues, they only want to focus on how the process is thwarting democracy.

Ia Ive said before on here, I voted leave, Ive never liked the EU or its mission creep, however I would vote remain given another chance. There are no available options that are better than the current deal we have. I feel many leaver dont want to think about all the options and take a pragmatic view.

 

[jasonzyx]

The problem is that Brexit cant be delivered.
but what other options for a deal were available.
There are no available options that are better than the current deal we have.

There was an option nine months ago which failed by just 6 votes!
It's never been tried again since. It only needed 4 MPs to rethink.

Brexit vote: Government defeats EU customs union bid
The MPs wanted the UK to join a customs union if it does not agree a free-trade deal with the EU.

But the government, which says a customs union would stop it striking new trade deals, won by 307 to 301.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44864496
​

Compare that with May's Deal suffering defeat by 150 and 250 votes!

So there is very nearly a consensus in Parliament.

 

[SirGalahad]

Both my kids voted to remain and both said they’d now vote to leave if there was another referendum based solely on the behaviour of the EU and the squealing from the losing remainers. They accepted that a majority is the democratic way. I see one Labour knob on the telly this morning is calling for an 80% majority if there is another referendum. Seems like a simple majority is meaningless for remainers these days.

That doesn't make any sense blaming the EU- it's a false narrative.

The EU asked what we wanted it was Freedom of movement of goods, services and capital but not people. EU said the four freedoms cannot be separated, so what do you want?

Norway, Swiss, Turkey model? What do you want?

The UK kept banging their heads on about having three freedoms but not on people. Finally the UK understood so have agreed a WA that only covers goods and the EU are saying we need a hard border if talks collapse. You cannot blame the EU for defending their borders but wait on Quitters do so when they actually defend their borders you complain - it hypocrisy and stupidity.

If someone took their car to you for an MOT and they knew it was going to fail on the tyres and exhaust but they said you can overlook those and just let the MOT pass you would say on your bike. But this person is persistent and comes back the next day and next and you tell him the same thing.

Blaming the EU is just comfort for those who realised they voted in error and now want to blame someone else.

 

[Mottie]

If someone took their car to you for an MOT and they knew it was going to fail on the tyres and exhaust but they said you can overlook those and just let the MOT pass you would say on your bike. But this person is persistent and comes back the next day and next and you tell him the same thing.

MOT tests are non-negotiable, it's the law. Brexit is all new so has no 'rules' other that what the EU want to state. Where does it say in statute that you cant have three of the four freedoms?

 

[Notch7]

But the government, which says a customs union would stop it striking new trade deals

The problem is that its not possible to be part of the customs union, which solves the Irish problem and check free movement at the borders as well as being able to make free trade deals.

The issue is that you cant have free movement of goods without regulatory alignment -something I didnt used to appreciate -its a key reason why the EU is bound by so many rules.

Therefore it doesnt really make it easy or perhaps possible to have our own trade deals with other countries if we retain regulatory alignment / free movement.

The EU dont want 1 country to have different trade deals with other countries, if those goods could get into the single market.....

Im not sure I understand the difference between customs union and single market for goods -I understand regulatory alignment can mean different things.

Bespoke deals are possible with the EU, but no deal can really allow to break the customs union rules on 3rd countries -hence the Irish problem.

Which ever way you look at it it is an unwinnable conundrum. If we cant make our own trade deals there is little point in leaving.

Leavers need to think about the practical options, not just get angry because they think parliament is thwarting democracy.

Whats actually happening is that parliamant cant square the circle

.......Leavers want an option that isnt possible but cant reconcile that with the logic of staying.

 

[jasonzyx]

The problem is that its not possible to be part of the customs union, which solves the Irish problem and check free movement at the borders as well as being able to make free trade deals.

None of that is in dispute.
What is in dispute is the claim by many, not just you and transam, that there is no other agreement, arrangement or deal that would pass Parliamentary approval
Clearly, there is one which has only been voted down by a very narrow margin, nine months ago. A little bit of work and it would easily get Parliamentary approval.
But it is being totally ignored, forgotten or dismissed.

 

[SirGalahad]

MOT tests are non-negotiable, it's the law. Brexit is all new so has no 'rules' other that what the EU want to state. Where does it say in statute that you cant have three of the four freedoms?

http://en.euabc.com/word/506

If you knew that they were non negotiable from the start only a fool would ask for them to be changed. We were signatories to these agreements. So if you want to peddle nonsense that it's the EU fault then at least try to understand how the EU works as your points will be easily dismissed as nothing more than curved banana myth.

Many quitters have said the EU has porous borders - go and look at the delays that Turkish truckers face when they enter the EU and Turkey is part of the customs union.

https://www.ft.com/content/b4458652-f42d-11e6-8758-6876151821a6

On a recent Saturday at the Kapıkule border crossing, about 30 minutes drive from the Turkish city of Edirne, a line of trucks 4km long stretched along the highway, inching along glacially towards the Bulgarian checkpoints. “Today is a good day,” said Ibrahim Kurtukcu, a 42-year trucker who had been waiting 14 hours. “Last week the line was 7km long.” The record is 17km. It can take up to 30 hours to get through to the other side.

 

[Notch7]

None of that is in dispute.
What is in dispute is the claim by many, not just you and transam, that there is no other agreement, arrangement or deal that would pass Parliamentary approval
Clearly, there is one which has only been voted down by a very narrow margin, nine months ago. A little bit of work and it would easily get Parliamentary approval.
But it is being totally ignored, forgotten or dismissed.

I dont think Ive made that claim.

Personally I think Corbyn should campaign for a second referendum rather than a customs union option.....which rules out any option to do trade deals

 

[Mottie]

I'm not denying the four freedoms exist and they may well apply to those who are IN the EU. We're leaving so they shouldn't apply to us. We could adopt, 1,2,3 or all four of them. Or none at all. That's my point - they don't apply to other countries the EU trades with do they? Then why should they apply to the UK when it's not in the EU?

Does any country in the EU that deals with those outside for example, the USA or Canada, have the four freedoms applying to those countries and their citizens?

 

[Notch7]

I'm not denying the four freedoms exist and they may well apply to those who are IN the EU. We're leaving so they don't apply to us. We could adopt, 1,2,3 or all four of them. Or none at all. That's my point - they don't apply to other countries the EU trades with do they? Then why should they apply to the UK when it's not in the EU?

Does any country in the EU that deals with, for example, the USA or Canada insist that the four freedoms apply to the USA and it's citizens?

The EU have various levels of relationship. to be a part of the single market for trading means being part of all 4 freedoms, thats the way it is.

I think the EU will have pressure put on them from a number of nation states to relax the freedom of movement.

The best solution, I feel for the UK is to remain a member but campaign with other countries for the EU to reform -If the UK could be a full member and not have to have free movement, that would get quite a few leaver on board. The reality though is that the UK needs large numbers coming here to support its economy. What it should do though is sort out its lack of keeping track of overstayers.

 

[JohnD]

I'm not denying the four freedoms exist and they may well apply to those who are IN the EU. We're leaving so they shouldn't apply to us. We could adopt, 1,2,3 or all four of them. Or none at all. That's my point - they don't apply to other countries the EU trades with do they? Then why should they apply to the UK when it's not in the EU?

Does any country in the EU that deals with those outside for example, the USA or Canada, have the four freedoms applying to those countries and their citizens?

You mean like Norway (not in the EU)

I know you've seen this before. Perhaps you should read it.

Outcomes

• JohnD
• 18 Aug 2016
• 1

 

[Mottie]

I've got absolutely nothing against EU nationals coming over here to do a job of work, paying taxes and NI (if eligible), using our schools, health service and benefits system etc but there should be the same border checks as for say people coming from other parts of the world. No job or means of support for a holiday as well as health travel insurance, means no entry. And yes, get tough on the overstayers. Maybe they are hard to track but make them have a checkable UK sponsor who pays when they disappear. For Gods sake, there's plenty of places in the world that we cant go to without a job, house or funds and receive benefits and health care so why do we put up with it here? That's one thing plenty of people (except Corbyn and Co) are really ****ed about.