Anyone got any evidence for a god?

[Mikefromlondon]

Mike ok god's the creator then but who ffs created god something in your logic would of had too anyway it's Halloween and I've just seen the first two witch's fly past the moon on their broomstick's

Nobody had to create God, quite simply if you apply the power of pure logic, God is the master source of all Energies, and as your genius Master (Einstein) told you that energy cannot be destroyed nor created, and since we already know that without Energy nothing comes into existence,

So that means because there was this Energy that is undestroyable, and not creatable, so using the power of pure logic we arrive at a conclusion that Energy was always present, in one form or another, as a result of which the creation was possible, matter came into existence as some of this energy was used up in its make up or conversion into matter.

Such is the logic of this Energy, that something that cannot be destroyed nor created, therefore it must have always existed, it therefore need not have come from anywhere, or be created by something, or someone else, since it is not creatable.

I want to try and keep it simple and short, as I can explain a lot more about this pure and simple logic that has defied men.

BTW, the witches aren't part of pure logic.

 

[JBR]

and losers pick on tiny flaws to attack me as I prefer cats over humans any time, I feel sorry for losers and I love God's creation and best of all these lovely moggies that God created as per his plans !

I'm not going to join in all these religious ramblings; I don't believe in God because there is no evidence of a god. However, if people feel the need to believe in a supernatural, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient being, then that's up to them.

What I do want to say is that I can empathise with your feelings about cats. I have met some very good humans (religious or not) and I have come across many very bad ones: selfish people and evil people. Some may argue that cats are selfish (yes, they certainly are) and even evil (they kill mice and birds, although this is an instinctive thing rather than a determined choice to behave in an evil way) but, unlike humans, they do not possess the understanding of consequences of their actions.

Yes, on the whole I think I prefer cats too. They just haven't evolved as far as humans have... yet! (See Red Dwarf!)

 

[jeds]

So what created the mystical forces and energy that us your god?

eh... What you trying to say Dim?

God is immortal therefore cannot be created nor destroyed.

How do you know. How was this communicated to you? Do you get this from the bible?

 

[Norcon]

JBR wrote

All I want is for Britain to become Britain again - the Britain I knew when I was a child.

The Britian you knew as a child had a population of people who held Christianity as an important part of their lives.

Now you heathens have abandoned the path of righteousness since about the sixties and worship nothing but matelialism, football, drugs, pubs and strip joints etc.

Your idea of Sunday worship is a trip to B&Q, a football match or the local strip joint.


It has created a weakness now being seized upon by Islam.

You thought you were being clever.
Its all your fault!

 

[jockscott]

Science cannot create anything, from nothing. Prove it otherwise. only then I could say God is not required as science can prove beyond a doubt that they can create matter from nothing.

GOD =1 Science = 0

The plain fact, staring you in the face (should you look hard enough) is that we just don't know if the universe was "created " from nothing. Even you can't state this as fact. (you yourself state it as a "belief" (rather different from fact)
According to the laws of physics, energy can neither be destroyed nor created. It's therefore logical and reasonable to surmise that this energy has always (and ever has) been there. Neither of us can go back in time to see where this energy actually came from. If the "big Bang" happened, then who can say (for definite) that it was caused by something called "God" ? .
This thread is rather pointless really, because neither side (the religiously devout, nor the atheists) can prove nor disprove each others theories.
Therefore I'd conclude,,,,,

GOD = 0 Science = 0 It's a no score draw.

 

[LastMagicBean]

Your idea of Sunday worship is a trip to B&Q, a football match or the local strip joint.

Yeeeeeehhaaa Bring it on I say. HEAVEN.

 

[JBR]

JBR wrote

All I want is for Britain to become Britain again - the Britain I knew when I was a child.

The Britian you knew as a child had a population of people who held Christianity as an important part of their lives.

Now you heathens have abandoned the path of righteousness since about the sixties and worship nothing but matelialism, football, drugs, pubs and strip joints etc.

Your idea of Sunday worship is a trip to B&Q, a football match or the local strip joint.


It has created a weakness now being seized upon by Islam.

You thought you were being clever.
Its all your fault!

You're quite right. When I was a child I was made to go to church and sunday school because it was 'the done thing'. I never really believed all the clap trap, though.

Now the years have passed I have sunk to the lowest possible depths.

Please excuse me now whilst I pop some drugs and nip down to the local strip joint. Then I'm off to the mosque to convert to islam. No football, though: I'd rather watch paint dry.

 

[GasBod]

God could easily have commanded the creation of man by His own Word, as He had done in the case of the animals (Genesis 1:20,24) and the plants (Genesis 1:11), but He chose not to. Man is not a close cousin of the animals, nor a distant relative of primitive plant life, nor a product of slime. Rather, he is someone great, wonderful and different, the most excellent of all God's works, and a special expression of the divine nature, created by God's own personal activity. God introduces him with solemnity, dignity, and the honour of an intimate deliberation on the part of the Godhead.

Quote: Man is not a close cousin of the animals

Says it all

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Science cannot create anything, from nothing. Prove it otherwise. only then I could say God is not required as science can prove beyond a doubt that they can create matter from nothing.

GOD =1 Science = 0

The plain fact, staring you in the face (should you look hard enough) is that we just don't know if the universe was "created " from nothing. Even you can't state this as fact. (you yourself state it as a "belief" (rather different from fact)
According to the laws of physics, energy can neither be destroyed nor created. It's therefore logical and reasonable to surmise that this energy has always (and ever has) been there. Neither of us can go back in time to see where this energy actually came from. If the "big Bang" happened, then who can say (for definite) that it was caused by something called "God" ? .
This thread is rather pointless really, because neither side (the religiously devout, nor the atheists) can prove nor disprove each others theories.
Therefore I'd conclude,,,,,

GOD = 0 Science = 0 It's a no score draw.

I think you may have got mixed up somewhere, at no time did I quote that I believe that Universe was created from Nothing, I strongly believe that absolutely Nothing could be created from Nothing, (no free lunch)

I sure do believe that Universe was created from abundant amount of energy, that is the attribute of God himself,

but if you omit God for a moment, as many people feel very uncomfortable, let us just stick with Energy, this we know cannot be created nor destroyed, therefore it must mean that Energy was always present and did not need to be created by anyone.

Now to me this is quite easily comprehensible, one just have to accept that some things just were, they did not need to be created as the logic state of this thing is ONE, (1) as opposed to Zero, or (0) as in computer logic, 1 means true, and 0 means false.

So in other words, Nothing does not Exists, Nothing has never existed, so if you drink a glass of beer, the glass becomes empty but the beer does not vanish, as the beer is in your guts, eventually it may breakdown into other useful states including waste product, but that beer is still in existence but in different chemical composition, some still in your body/blood stream, and some you discharged as urine and is now in a drain heading for sewage plant and ultimately it may end up in sea.

So Nothing does not exist, we may die, our body decomposes and gets converted to other states, and still lives on, and some of it is converted into heat energy as it decomposes, supporting other life forms, so Nothing does not exist, never has.

Only because nothing does not exist that the universe was able to be created, through whatever process, or as a product of something else transforming elsewhere, that created the Universe, but behind everything Energy is a critical component for its existence.

Nothing only exists for an empty glass of beer, i.e it is a false state where when beer is drunk from a glass, it then becomes empty as far as the beer is concerned, but a glass can never be empty, since as soon as beer is drunk out if it, air enters its space, and if you remove all air from the glass, by a powerful vacuum pump, the glass is now empty only as far as the air is concerned, but it is been replaced by vacuum, meaning no air at all but just empty space, empty space has things in it that we cannot see,

can you see gravity, nope, but this gravity fills the empty glass space, imagine atoms all around the outside of the glass , these atoms are attracted to each other all around the glass using the shortest path, so these lines of attraction which are invisible are criss crossing the empty glass, so that the empty space inside the glass is now filled with gravity lines of attraction, as well as magnetic lines of force from the earth's magnetic field.

So my friend, Nothing has never existed, things were always there, and always will be in one form or another, even if the beer finally breaks down into million other substances, it still exists in its many forms.

Energy is responsible for this conversion, it is energy that decides what is to be, it has laid rules if such and such a substance collide, or come into contact then the results will be such and such, so in the end everything remains undestroyed but in various forms,

Nothing does not exist, it never has, if it existed or if it was the truth, then nothing would have been in existence, but fortunately the true state is opposite of Nothing, i.e. logic 1, hence why we are here, and why universe is here. This is the shear power of logic that can resolve things.

So what this means is everything that is in existence today shall remain in existence in one form or another forever. I may not exist when i die, as but I will still exist as something else in future, that will be beyond my control, what becomes of me, even I can't fathom, this will be down to Energy what becomes of me.

Latest score : Energy = 1 Nothing = 0

 

[cajar]

Mike, sorry if this seems like a personal attack cos I really dont mean it like that, and I think personal attacks are really bad form, but after reading what you wrote I can't help but thinking how clueless you are and I have to be that blunt. You know nothing about physics or 'energy' but keep pushing your misunderstanding of it (gravity does not 'enter' a vacuum to fill the space where the air was removed from), and I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion (as if I hadn't before) that religious belief is more closely correlated with an inability to grasp scientific concepts than ever before.

You say we worship einstein and since you worship god you're choosing a higher power, but maybe if you began to accept that you cannot and will not understand everything he wrote, but that it has been tested and verified by people more qualified than you or I, that science is a far more credible source of information than the bible. And what you're reading there is a book of superstition that pre-dates scientific discoveries.

Even Charles Darwin said on his deathbed that although christianity isn't true and evolution proves how we came about, that christianity is still a good guide for life and morals for the uneducated man.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Mike, sorry if this seems like a personal attack cos I really dont mean it like that, and I think personal attacks are really bad form, but after reading what you wrote I can't help but thinking how clueless you are and I have to be that blunt. You know nothing about physics or 'energy' but keep pushing your misunderstanding of it (gravity does not 'enter' a vacuum to fill the space where the air was removed from), and I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion (as if I hadn't before) that religious belief is more closely correlated with an inability to grasp scientific concepts than ever before.

You say we worship einstein and since you worship god you're choosing a higher power, but maybe if you began to accept that you cannot and will not understand everything he wrote, but that it has been tested and verified by people more qualified than you or I, that science is a far more credible source of information than the bible. And what you're reading there is a book of superstition that pre-dates scientific discoveries.

Even Charles Darwin said on his deathbed that although christianity isn't true and evolution proves how we came about, that christianity is still a good guide for life and morals for the uneducated man.

Thanks for not being personal, and you have some valid points, I am often doubtful about God, that is pitiful as I don't fully understand him from my point of view, religionist have already made their minds up as to who God is, i am in the middle, i don't follow any religion, I wanted to search for the truth totally independently, using just the power of logic alone. More than often I think deep down that he must exists, and has existed and never needed to be created by anything else before him.

As I tried to explain this using a glass can never be empty ever, as long as it is a glass and someone hasn't smashed it, it is still a glass (tumbler) there will always be something in it, it could never be empty or void of anything, it can never be filled with Nothing, of course gravity does not enter the glass when it becomes empty of vacuum or beer that was inside, gravity was already in the glass even before the barman filled it with a beer, and remained or co-existed with beer, I tried explaining it in a layman's terms, not as a scientist. Technically gravity would not enter the glass when the beer is drunk out of it, as Gravity is invisible, formless, it does not need physical displacement to enter something. it already co-exists with everything in the universe, Nothing is in fact gravity free.

So all I am doing is giving a basic explanation and not a scientific notation. Now that does not mean that that I have to be a scientist to come up with these things, infact I see all scientist making a big error by claiming that Universe came from Nothing and that an event called the big bang initiated it without requiring an input from something else.

Logically speaking that can happen, though not necessarily. there is no proof that, that is what happened, no point on speculating what may have happened as an alternative theory, as that could not be proved either.

But the question is did things needed to come from somewhere? or were they already in existence as a default state and transformed into many many new and unique things over the immensely long period thus far.

So in the end, as I said that glass can never be empty even when it looks empty to us, because there are many more things inside it that we cannot see.

so the point I was making was that Nothing does not exists, the default state of everything was One or true, we humans tend to thing that the default state of everything was Zero (0) and that something needs to turn this default state into One (1) to begin an action, so from this you could see that Universe will continue to go through many many more changes, some changes will be completely new to man that has not yet occurred, as combination of different elements give rise to new substances, new elements are being formed that we don't know yet, scientists discover new elements as the time goes on,


So whatever I am saying is neither from the religious point of view nor from the scientific point of view, just logical thinking and using the power of logic you can solve many unknown or unseen things, this means many of these you would never be able to prove in an experiment.

Oh just one more thing, try and pour beer into an empty glass without a gravity being present inside, you will have a big struggle!

 

[cajar]

You have a little understanding of the theory that energy cannot be created, only changed*, and whether this applies to the universe before our existence is not known, but at what point does this require a god to explain it?

And you believe more than just a creationist god to explain the universe, since you said god intervened when your cat was ill, so you believe in one that listens to prayers.

There is not one shred of evidence to support the existence of any god or supernatural being.

*this law you keep referring to, which is called the conservation of energy is a scientific reasoning, discovered by the same scientific method that concludes there is no evidence for any god. You are happy to take bits of what they say but when it gets overwhelming, you shut down and wheel in superstition to explain what you cannot understand.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

You have a little understanding of the theory that energy cannot be created, only changed*,

That is exactly what I believe as in line with the master Einstein, when did I ever disagree on any threads or posts? of course I know this law of conservation of energy, it is the most basic law in physics, studied it at O levels! and not only that, I personally agree with it logically.

and whether this applies to the universe before our existence is not known, but at what point does this require a god to explain it?

Of course this law would apply even before the creation of the Universe, since universe is formed from energy, hence law of conservation of energy would apply to energy before or after the universe is created, again this is plain and simple power of logic.

And I specifically said let us leave God out for a moment, and you brought him into this, God himself is the Supreme and Divine Energy, the master of all energies, so I have just given this broad Energy a Title and logically facts do not change, I have just named this energy God, and his Divine qualities, in other words, we do not fully understand the full nature of this energy, its other aspects, like the divine part, the spiritual part, but we know its mighty destructive part, e.g. nuclear or atomic energy.

And you believe more than just a creationist god to explain the universe, since you said god intervened when your cat was ill, so you believe in one that listens to prayers.

ironically, yes, but one can also put it down to shear luck, was it not my insistence that the vet take another look at my cat? was something telling me not to give up hope? I don't truly know the answer, but yes I did cry and asked God/ and his blessed soul Jesus to please spare the life of this poor little cat who is only just 3 years old and has not to my knowledge tortured any smaller animals like my other cats do.

There is not one shred of evidence to support the existence of any god or supernatural being.

I agree, the evidence is not easy to come by, the results speak for themselves though, whether that is sufficient for most or not, for me it was convincing that there is something we don't yet fully understand.

*this law you keep referring to, which is called the conservation of energy is a scientific reasoning, discovered by the same scientific method that concludes there is no evidence for any god. You are happy to take bits of what they say but when it gets overwhelming, you shut down and wheel in superstition to explain what you cannot understand.

your above statement contradict law of conservation of energy, and you saying using the same method concludes there is no God!

But if I am saying God = Energy, where am I wrong then ? I said God and Energy are the same thing, earlier on i said in one of my threads that God and Energy are intertwined, they are the two sides of the same coin, I tried to explain that as when there is a fire, there will be heat, fire and heat are the same thing, intertwined, same way my understanding of God and energy is the same.

I am not a scientist and have no qualifications to assert my theories on others, but i am quite content with them for my own vision of God.

You are perfectly entitled to reject my ideas about God, I am merely taking a part in this debate whether God exists and if so where is the proof, so if someone ask me have I got any proof if energy exists?

what do i tell him? of course it exists!

 

[cajar]

I agree, the evidence is not easy to come by, the results speak for themselves though, weather that is sufficient for most or not, for me it was convincing that there is something we don't yet fully understand.

The evidence is not there at all, as the results speak to there being no gods. Prayers have been tested and show they do not work. Believers simply say thats god's will instead of facing the truth. On one occasion you prayed that your cat would survive and when you took him to the vet he was treated and survived. That is enough for you to conclude god listened and intervened, but to a logical person the cat's survival can be explained without god in anyway, i mean the vet gave him drugs, that's not a heavenly miracle.

your above statement contradict law of conservation of energy, and you saying using the same method concludes there is no God!

But if I am saying God = Energy, where am I wrong then ? I said God and Energy are the same thing, earlier on i said in one of my threads that God and Energy are intertwined, they are the two sides of the same coin, I tried to explain that as when there is a fire, there will be heat, fire and heat are the same thing, intertwined, same way my understanding of God and energy is the same.

The scientific method ie gather evidence, and propose a theory, then test it and test it again, is what produced that law, and the same scientific method, ie find evidence for a god, has failed at the first hurdle since there is none.

You saying god equals energy is wrong because god does not exist, unlike energy. It's like me saying electricity = fairies so if you're using a computer then fairies have delivered the power, where can i be wrong. you're wrong in your very first statement of fact which incorrectly assumes (without evidence) that god exists.

Whatever mysteries of the universe there are, god is not required to explain any of them. If you show primative tribes an helicopter they will assume god has made the metal float, but we know better that it's a feat of engineering. Their ignorance to that doesnt make their belief any truer.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

As I said we do not presently understand full aspects of this Energy, only recently we were able to prove the existence of Higgs particle, even though it was short lived, we may still find many more things about our universe and the unknown, such as the dark energy, we now understand much of our universe but I am sure we will continue to find more and more until we attain the ultimate truth, that we are all in search of,

Just as Scientist are baffled since they cannot for sure see or or what happened before the big bang, God fits perfectly into the scene, it is just a matter of time that one day this could be proved, lack of evidence is not the evidence that God does not exist.

As for my cat, that was very ironic, she survived and is touch wood back to her normal self, fit and playful.

Besides that, there had been number of other incidents where my prayers were answered, I do not know how and why, I must be doing something right, too many coincides don't occur one after another, still I have an open mind, the scale is tipping more towards God being there rather than not.